Why do you choose not to follow the established standards and conventions for icons? Do you not see how that makes things more complicated and fragile (as evinced by the issue we're discussing)? The icon is the responsibility of the program the icon represents. I don't care about what the hypothetical unformed user may think about it in this instance. We're developers talking to developers. Solutions can be found without talking to the PR department.
Anyway, as I said, I already fixed it in the simplest way possible. I prefer to let the user wonder "why no icon for this client", that way maybe someone will actually look into it and discover that the icon is the incorrect size rather than masking the issue and wasting RAM by opening the oversized icon. On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 6:05 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: > As I see, it is all about reducing friction for the user. > I do not expect the user to manually create an icon for it to be displayed > nicely. > > The user will just see the incorrectly-drawn icon and blame the tool > displaying such icon. > > Carla for example does not have a 32x32 icon, and I bet it is not alone. > So for those that dont have that particular exact size of an icon, scaling > works. > On 04/01/21 02:00, J. Liles wrote: > > It is an issue when you treat it as a matter of blame and justification > for forks and whatnot. I'm 95% sure this is just an oversight on > ZynAddSubFX's part (personally, I used ImageMagick to rescale the icon once > forgot about it). Should all software have special code to deal with 32x32 > pixel icons which are actually 800x800 pixels? I dunno. Seems debatable to > me. > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 5:57 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: > >> If there is, I dont recall at the moment. >> >> I remember seeing the issue on zynaddsubfx and went just to fix it >> without checking how many others had it. >> >> It might be worth fixing just so it does not happen again. It is a large >> icon on zyn side yes, but scaling it should not be an issue either. >> >> On 04/01/21 01:52, J. Liles wrote: >> >> I'll see about unblocking you. I had to report your behavior to github >> after you posted some particularly offensive remarks on the issue tracker. >> >> The icon size thing is a ZynAddSubFX bug AFIAK. I've not encountered >> another client that had a stupidly large icon like that. Are there others? >> >> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 5:50 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> So actions do speak louder than words. >>> >>> I wanted to submit back some changes, but am somehow blocked from >>> participating on the github project completely, so a PR fails. >>> >>> Would be nice to get along. >>> >>> I went ahead with an alternative account to submit the first change. >>> See it at https://github.com/original-male/non/pull/294 >>> >>> Should be pretty straight forward. >>> It adds a new icon size possible for the GUI icons, and sets resolution >>> of the GUI icon so that FLTK/NTK can take care to scale it nicely. >>> Before a few icons would appear incorrectly or not at all. >>> >>> Thanks >>> On 04/01/21 00:28, Filipe Coelho wrote: >>> >>> On 03/01/21 23:58, J. Liles wrote: >>> >>> Too much to respond to here. I really find your messages confusing >>> Fillipe, because again there's such a stark difference between your actions >>> and your words. >>> >>> I am sorry for that, I dont mean it. Looking at one-self is sometimes >>> the hardest. >>> >>> >>> I believe that part of the problem may be that you are reading some kind >>> of emotional/constitutional subtext into simple factual statements like "X >>> is out of the scope of this project and furthermore X can be implemented >>> easily as a separate client/script/whatever than there is therefore no need >>> for X to be incorporated into the project." To me, this is a factual >>> statement about technological realities, informed by Unix philosophy and >>> general logic. To you, it seems, this is being interpreted as "Male is mean >>> and hates me and refuses to listen to reason." >>> >>> If you call people names and insult them, that is enough for me to think >>> you are completely opposed to an idea. >>> I do not have access to the github tickets, so cant quote from them. But >>> here is from an email you sent last year: >>> >>> > You're cowards without the balls to contribute back to a project that >>> benefited you greatly. You should be ashamed of yourselves. With friends >>> like these, who needs enemies? Were you hoping that I died from the virus, >>> you fucking bastards? >>> >>> This is not a one-off thing, abuse was common-place everytime we >>> suggested anything you deemed a bit more exotic. >>> >>> >>> That is a synthetic example, but I'll take a real one from your message >>> below: >>> >>> Why would I make my application dependent on NSM? >>> I want my applications to be cross-platform, and work for everyone, >>> something you are against. >>> (At least it is what I understand from >>> https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/FAQ, forgive me if I am making the wrong >>> assumption here) >>> >>> Here is the text you're referring to: >>> Why don't you provide OS X or Windows binaries? >>> >>> Unlike, ahem, some other DAW projects, the direction of Non is not >>> driven by financial interests. Time and money spent aquiring[sic] the >>> special hardware and software to develop on closed platforms would, in my >>> humble opinion, be better spent on actually developing Non. >>> >>> You interpreted this statement as "male is against software being cross >>> platform and working for everyone." This is of course completely false. The >>> reality is that male doesn't run Mac OS or Windows and it would literally >>> be insane for him to spend thousands of dollars of his own time and money >>> to acquire a Mac or Windows machine and develop ports for them. If someone >>> else runs Mac OS or Windows and wants to port my software there, test it, >>> and send me patches, I would be happy to apply them. But to insist that I >>> support platforms I do not myself use or have access to is to make an >>> unreasonable demand of me. Can you see the truth in what I'm saying? Is >>> this a cultural/language barrier thing? If I called you a meanie for not >>> porting Carla to the Amiga for me, would you feel I was being reasonable? >>> >>> Well, if you read what I wrote more clearly, you would see the context. >>> >>> You wrote: >>> > Until I see ... [your] GUI renamed to something else and made >>> dependent on NSM rather than attempting to supplant it >>> >>> I commented that this is not possible for Carla, because you do not have >>> interest for cross-platform but I do. >>> So I cannot make Carla dependent on NSM because of that. >>> >>> >>> But nevertheless, if you want to bury the hatchet and cooperate, I'm all >>> for it. If there are patches to make NSMD work on Windows or Mac (although >>> I can't see why it wouldn't already work) then send 'em on over. If there >>> are patches to document or improve the GUI API, send those too. If you have >>> suggestions for how NSM could be packaged in a way that distros would >>> accept in order that you could use it as a dependency, well I'm all ears >>> man! A little help would be very much welcome. >>> >>> I can go through the changes made in the new repo and submit PRs, but I >>> am lacking in time due to 15 of January being tagged as "release day" and >>> still having a few things not quite ready. >>> >>> Let's start with something small. Which I just tried, but pull request >>> fails. Did you block me? >>> >>> See >>> https://github.com/original-male/non/compare/master...falkTX:imported-fixes-pt1?expand=1 >>> and you can do the PR yourself. >>> >>> Is this a good first step? >>> >>> >>> But if you come at me with some kitchen sink/bloat stuff, don't be >>> surprised if I ask for some justification (i.e. "there is literally no >>> better way to do this than to add it to NSM"). That is not unreasonable. >>> That is not done out of ill-will. It is simply done out of a detached, >>> professional interest in maintaining quality and suitability. >>> >>> That is quite reasonable, and I am all for it. >>> >>> The main thing we keep asking is to stop the personal attacks and >>> occasional verbal abuse. >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:25 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 03/01/21 22:34, J. Liles wrote: >>>> >>>> Fillipe, you keep saying this "we the community" stuff. Who elected you >>>> as the spokesperson for the community? That's part of your problem. You >>>> think you're the self appointed king/dictator of Linux audio. >>>> >>>> I am not speaking for the community, nor I am leading anything. I am >>>> rather bad at this. >>>> >>>> When I wrote in my mail here about the "we community" I speak about >>>> what I know of all the conversations on IRC, email and forum threads. >>>> So by community, I have to speak about the still sorta minority of >>>> developers that still care about standalones and session management. >>>> We all came into an agreement after seeing some of your reactions prior >>>> to the fork and reveal. >>>> >>>> I am just the one talking here because the others are all tired of all >>>> this drama, and just gave up trying to reason with you. >>>> >>>> >>>> Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is *you* who are difficult to >>>> deal with? >>>> >>>> Yes, I know this from experience that I can be very hard to work with. >>>> Tend to be perfectionist, and caring about all the little details, >>>> often too negative. >>>> Often caring about the little details more than the bigger ones. >>>> >>>> It is something I am trying to improve. >>>> >>>> Maybe for you, try to be less accusatory? >>>> >>>> >>>> There are many ways that *I* can think of that any reasonable, >>>> technical goals of yours, mine and anyone else's regarding NSM could be >>>> resolved. But please keep a little perspective here. >>>> >>>> Sure, and disagreement is expected. >>>> >>>> >>>> You were not smart enough to invent NSM, and yet you think you're smart >>>> enough to improve when the person who was smart enough to invent it >>>> disagrees with your "approach". >>>> >>>> You were smart to invest NSM and had time dedicate for it, I am >>>> grateful for that, thank you. >>>> >>>> Please be reasonable as well. >>>> I did not invest LASH, or LADISH, or JACK, or Qt, or many other things. >>>> I dont see how that is an argument for anything.. >>>> >>>> NSM as in protocol, does not really need change. jackpatch has a >>>> user-experience problem, but that might be unrelated to NSM itself. >>>> >>>> The things I would like to improve are in regards of user experience, >>>> the protocol can stay intact. >>>> But please understand, when you ignore or even attack back request to >>>> make the experience better for new users, how are we supposed to act? >>>> >>>> Nils went a step ahead and started his own GUI, yet you attack him by >>>> not having contributing nothing of value. >>>> So we are useless because we do not send patches for behaviour you >>>> clearly do not want (like an export option in the SM GUI), and yet if we go >>>> to do our thing while still respecting the NSM protocol we are still >>>> treated like shit. >>>> How does that many any sense?? >>>> >>>> (I would love to link to the issue/discussion in question here >>>> regarding export option, but you removed github tickets) >>>> >>>> >>>> I say your approach, but all you and your gang ever really came to me >>>> with were demands that I implement things I have no and see no use for. If >>>> you had a little skill in communication and a little humility and a less >>>> blatant desire to bring everything good and valuable in Linux audio under >>>> your anime umbrella, then you could have easily gotten anything reasonable >>>> that you wanted. Reasonable being the key word here. You can't go around >>>> demanding people work for free to implement your poorly thought out and >>>> unjustified whims. >>>> >>>> An export/import option is not unreasonable, in my opinion (and several >>>> others on the same github topic too). >>>> >>>> You do not have a use for it, okay. So what is so bad if someone else >>>> tries to do it? >>>> When we open an issue/ticket on github, it is not with the expectation >>>> that you do everything. >>>> Sometimes tickets are just places for discussion. >>>> >>>> Github tickets are not demands. >>>> >>>> >>>> You have publicly slandered me, you have called my software malware, >>>> etc. so don't pretend to be so innocent. >>>> >>>> I do not recall ever saying such things, but I apologize. I did not >>>> mean those things, and clearly do not think that. >>>> >>>> Why would I willingly be packaging and using malware myself? That >>>> doesnt make sense.. >>>> >>>> Again, I am sorry, I do not mean or meant to offend you in any way. >>>> Maybe some rushed comment when conversation got heated? >>>> In any case, I apologize for that. >>>> >>>> >>>> You call my remarks "weird", and yet you're the one who names all his >>>> programs after women (is that not "weird"?) >>>> >>>> Oh that haha. >>>> >>>> I guess it is just a little bias here. The reason for the C names is >>>> just a cheap idea copy of G*, K*, Q* names that other applications use. >>>> Me being 11=12 years younger when I gave those names thought it would >>>> be funny to have a suite of tools starting with C, because it seems similar >>>> to Q for the use of the Qt toolkit. >>>> >>>> I am not a native english speaker, coming up with good names is hard >>>> for me. >>>> So to remove bias, here are some other projects created by me that do >>>> not have such names. >>>> >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/Chibi (has C name, but not related to a >>>> girl/woman) >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/JackAss >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/Hylia >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/FluidPlug >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/nooice >>>> https://github.com/falkTX/los (fork of existing project, play-on-words >>>> alike libre/openoffice) >>>> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DPF >>>> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DISTRHO-Ports >>>> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DIE-Plugins >>>> https://github.com/DISTRHO/Kars >>>> https://github.com/DISTRHO/ProM >>>> >>>> So perhaps there are more projects made without the C woman than you >>>> realize. :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Again, you can say whatever lies you want, but the proof of the pudding >>>> is in the eating. >>>> >>>> Please tell me any more "lies" you see. I like to be transparent, I am >>>> trying to answer in truth to anything you might deem as a lie here. >>>> >>>> Other might see here it is actually the other way around. >>>> >>>> >>>> Until I see patches for NSM, documentation patches documenting the GUI >>>> API and your (python or whatever) GUI renamed to something else and made >>>> dependent on NSM rather than attempting to supplant it, then I and everyone >>>> else will know what the truth of the matter really is and just how empty >>>> your words are. >>>> >>>> Why would I make my application dependent on NSM? >>>> I want my applications to be cross-platform, and work for everyone, >>>> something you are against. >>>> (At least it is what I understand from >>>> https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/FAQ, forgive me if I am making the >>>> wrong assumption here) >>>> >>>> Carla does not intend to supplant anything, at maximum we could say >>>> making jack-rack obsolete. >>>> I do not see a need to change the name, but it is not totally out of >>>> the question. >>>> If you promise to be nicer back to me, I am willing to make that rename >>>> without a second though. Do you have any suggestions for a name? (and >>>> please be civil) >>>> >>>> Also, not sure why you ask me personally to submit patches, when you >>>> initially mentioned me as speaking for the "community". >>>> So shouldnt the community be the one submitting patches? >>>> >>>> There are a few things that Nils submitted, as seen in >>>> https://github.com/original-male/non/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3Adiovudau >>>> I did a few changes/fixes on the new-session-manager repo, as I felt >>>> welcome there and that I could actually make a change. >>>> See >>>> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager/commits?author=falktx >>>> for the list, it is not much, but it is also not nothing. >>>> Should I submit these back to the NON repo? Will they be accepted them >>>> without me being shouted at? >>>> >>>> >>>> Should I just accept every dumb idea and half-assed patch without >>>> question? Is asking someone to explain themselves the action of a tyrant? >>>> Come on. >>>> >>>> You are fine to refuse any changes of course, but also please >>>> understand that if many changes get rejected, devs will start considering a >>>> fork as a necessity. >>>> >>>> >>>> You're just trying to capitalize on the fact that I don't show my >>>> boyish face on a github avatar or at LAC and can therefore be painted as >>>> inhuman. >>>> >>>> Who cares about the avatar? I do not like my own face, it is just there >>>> because I am too lazy now to change. >>>> I looks "boyish" I guess because it is just an old pic, I do not like >>>> to take pictures so those I have are usually old. >>>> >>>> You surely are human, your nickname is even original-male on github, >>>> dont know where that nonsense comes from. >>>> Dont hate yourself, or myself please. I am trying to be as peaceful and >>>> nice here as I can, to a point where I am really not sure what else to do. >>>> It is sad that I feel the need to write "please be civil" to every single >>>> comment that I know can provide a "gotcha" reply. >>>> >>>> Let's all be friendly please? >>>> >>>> >>>> The most disgusting thing about the whole affair is that you pretend to >>>> be friendly. I don't need friends like you, Fillipe. I'd rather surround >>>> myself with vipers. >>>> >>>> And I am sorry you feel that way. >>>> >>>> There are absolutely no hard feelings from my side, hope there is a way >>>> to make it that from your side too. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 1:38 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2021-01-03 20:21, J. Liles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Actions speak louder than words, Fillipe. >>>>> >>>>> Well yes, I am totally with you on that. >>>>> >>>>> In acts of rage we do thinks that we later regret. 2020 has been a >>>>> lousy year for most people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you really had honor, skill, gratitude, and goodwill, then you >>>>> would contribute back to the project which you have benefited from, rather >>>>> than attempting to co-opt it in order to win the empty accolades of Linux >>>>> Audio Conference attendees and pad your resume with the accomplishments of >>>>> others. >>>>> >>>>> I really do not appreciate the personal attacks, I thought we were >>>>> past this. >>>>> >>>>> But since you mention it, I can see where you come from with some of >>>>> these, but feel it is totally misguided. >>>>> I have not put any non-personal projects on my own CV, you can see it >>>>> for yourself at https://falktx.com/#cv >>>>> And you can even see the commit history for the CV >>>>> https://github.com/falkTX/falktx-web/commits/master/cv >>>>> >>>>> I did take over the JACK project a bit too early, while I was still >>>>> too deep with some life issues and between jobs, I feel guilty of that. >>>>> It took way too long from taking JACK to actually make a proper >>>>> release, and then come true to the promises to revive the win/mac >>>>> situation. >>>>> I have purposefully reduced my working hours just to have some time to >>>>> dedicate per week to open-source projects. Now even at only 3 days per >>>>> week. >>>>> >>>>> So forgive me if I feel a little bit personally attacked here. I never >>>>> called you names or said swear words to you. >>>>> >>>>> You know very well that we tried to have co-operation with you in the >>>>> NSM project. But all we got was friction, sometimes even verbal abuse. >>>>> Maybe that is just how you think it should be done, but most of the >>>>> community does not think the same way. >>>>> There was more than 1 developer that intentionally did not implement >>>>> NSM support because they saw how hard it was to get anything done and >>>>> pushed for in NSM. >>>>> >>>>> I tried to remain neutral all this time, promoting NSM all I could. >>>>> The KXStudio repositories had NSM stuff up to date as much as >>>>> possible, I implemented NSM in my own tools and promoted it as well within >>>>> developers. >>>>> As an example, in the Sonoj 2019 talk about JACK, I publicly mention >>>>> that we need to push for NSM >>>>> >>>>> https://media.ccc.de/v/sonoj2019-1902-jack-past-present-future >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The only reason you didn't change the name of NSM to a pandering sexy >>>>> feminine name is that you wanted to keep the acronym intact to maximize >>>>> the >>>>> disruptive effect on me and my community of users and thwart efforts to >>>>> get >>>>> NSM included in Debian. >>>>> >>>>> Ignoring the weird remarks about sexism.. it is obvious why the NSM >>>>> name was kept. >>>>> Because we, in the community, truly believe in NSM to be a good spec >>>>> and the way to go forward in regards to session management. >>>>> >>>>> We want to push it forward and see it used a lot more, there were just >>>>> too many issues when dealing with its maintainer, of course you. >>>>> Make no mistake, one of the big reasons NON/NSM is not in >>>>> Debian/Ubuntu is because of your actions and how you behave(d). >>>>> >>>>> I do not mean this as any kind of personal attack, just wish you would >>>>> be able to see this really. >>>>> >>>>> It is because we, the community, really like NSM and believe in it, >>>>> that we went with a fork, as the last resort. >>>>> We really appreciate all the work you put on it, and for the rest of >>>>> the NON suite too. >>>>> But as a maintainer, you were jeopardizing the project with your >>>>> behaviour. >>>>> >>>>> Nils has some relevant things he said not a long while ago, see >>>>> https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21772&p=121745#p121745 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> People can change though, so if you ever decide to give up this >>>>> campaign of deceit and disruption, then I'll happily accept from you any >>>>> useful and appropriate patches you care to offer. >>>>> >>>>> I would say the same, for the first part. >>>>> >>>>> Some of the things are you saying are misguided, but understandable >>>>> that you feel hurt. >>>>> We hope you change to drop the personal attacks. >>>>> >>>>> I am sorry the situation got to this point. >>>>> >>>>> We love you, and your projects as well, specially NSM. >>>>> Really, please take care. >>>>> >>>>> Wish you all the best. >>>>> >>>>> Filipe Coelho >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 10:49 AM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2021-01-03 17:56, Richard wrote: >>>>>> > On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 15:40:17 +0100 >>>>>> > Fredrik Vestermark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Hi, >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I just wanted to reach out with a big thank you to J. Liles for >>>>>> your >>>>>> >> hard work on developing Non and publishing it under an open source >>>>>> >> license. Thank you to everybody else involved too, of course! >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> As a community, we often forget that developing and maintaining >>>>>> free >>>>>> >> software costs a lot of time and nerves. If you too feel like a >>>>>> >> GitHub star is not enough appreciation for Non, please consider a >>>>>> >> donation via PayPal to show some ♥ and support Liles great work: >>>>>> >> https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/Donations >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Best regards and a happy new year, >>>>>> >> Fredrik >>>>>> > Thank you Frederik for reminding me about the "Donations" page. >>>>>> > Thank you too to Aaron Duerksen for making such a complete bug >>>>>> report >>>>>> > on that segfault when removing a control. It has annoyed me for >>>>>> ages, >>>>>> > most recently yesterday, but I couldn't have done as good a job as >>>>>> you >>>>>> > in tracking down the issue. >>>>>> > And of course, thank you Jonathan for providing us with such a >>>>>> capable >>>>>> > suite of programs for exploring the worlds of sound processing and >>>>>> > making music. I'm an amateur at both, but boy, what fun it is. I >>>>>> look >>>>>> > forward to the exciting developments and possible improvements which >>>>>> > you may have time to share with us in the near future. >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> We all appreciate your efforts, even if there are things we disagree >>>>>> with. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. And happy new year to everyone by the way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>
