Hi Chris,
I am sure that you will be finding Anthony Robb's suggestions most helpful.
He is a most practical person as well as being a very good player. No doubt
you have his two CDs, "Windy Gyle" and "Force 6"
I don't know what other instruments you play. At some point I think you said
something to the effect that "everyone else uses the tempered scale, who don't
the NSP?" Perhaps you are aware that really good string and wind players,
when playing in small ensembles, definitely alter the pitch of certain notes
when playing together? I well remember one rehearsal session where one of the
players was obviously not as sensitive as the others and could not get his note
in tune for the final chord. He kept on insisting that he was playing
"exactly the same B" as he had in the chord at the beginning of the piece.
The rest of us immediately said, "That is the problem. In the first chord
your B was the fifth in the E minor chord, and at the end it is the 3rd of the
G major chord."
Likewise, when playing the Northumbrian pipes with really good violinists who
will, of course, have tuned their violins to the NSP "G" (i.e. concert F or G
depending on which chanter is being used) because that is a better note to tune
to than the traditional A - especially if most of the tunes to be played will
be in G, you will notice that these violinists will frequently not use an open
string A or E when playing along with you, because it would sound out of tune.
If you have listened to some of the recordings made with Nsp and fiddles
playing in unison you will notice that some sound great but others hurt your
ears and make you shudder.
When you listen to really good "a capella" (unaccompanied) small vocal
ensembles such as the "King's Singers" you are struck by the perfection of
their harmonies.
Perhaps other people disagree with me and this will stir up a hornet's nest.
It is just my personal thoughts on the subject and i don't claim to be an
expert.
Sheila
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Gregg <[email protected]>
To: nsp <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 11:13 pm
Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was
just poor musicianship on my part! I have just checked out the
deviation on my pipes with a tuner on my Iphone. Very interesting
results. I offset the tuner to A398, so that the needle would hold
still on the G. I did not use a mamoneter and I rounded out the notes
to the nearest five cents. There was some correlation with Mike
Nelson's chart, but also some serious differences. The b above g was
approx ten cents flat, the upper B more than 25 cents flat. The upper
A is 20 cents sharp, which explains why the B always sounds so flat
and I try and compensate with the bag. Now my e and f#s are both on
the sharp side which is the opposite to Mikes chart. I can see that I
need a new chanter, but my question is, why not use equal temperament
Now I can see why the fifths on the drones should be tuned pure, but in
equal temperament the fifth would only beat one time in two and a half
seconds, which is hardly noticeable. Is it so bad to have a little
beating on the third and sixth with the drones? It is not like we can
play chords on the chanter, unless it is with another set of pipes.
Every one else in the world pretty well plays to equal temperament and
also use tuning machines to verify their results. I am aware of perfect
pitch but never having just intonation. That is very interesting.
The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument
it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it
in recording sessions.
Chris Gregg
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[1][email protected]>
Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:40 AM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
To: [2][email protected], [3][email protected]
Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed
this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's
neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was
intended to be.
When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune,
the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just
increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on
the chanter to the "in tune" fifth and you get an equally tempered G
major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano,
where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the
sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the
ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player.
I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his
name in vain.
Csirz
P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why it's so
difficult to sound in tune in C major - especially if there are lots of
double stops and chords (e.g. Paganini's 11th caprice to take an
obvious example <g>)?
It's because you have to decide at any point whether you want/need to
be in tune with the G string or the E string. To be in tune with both,
you have to temper (narrow) your fifths, and then the fifths sound
rongue.
The chord GEbe (open G, first finger E+b, open e) (not encountered in
said caprice, btw) is impossible to get in tune unless you tweak the
finger sharp as you pass from the E to the b.
Anyone really interested should look up "syntonic comma" (which is the
difference between five perfect fifths (= open strings of viola +
violin) and two octaves and a pure major third). It's the reason why
guitarists with sensitive ears are never happy with the tuning of the G
and b strings (and why you can't tune the fifth fret harmonic on the b
string to the fourth fret harmonic on the g string - although many try
to!).
Once you've got used to hearing/listening to pure intervals, you
realise that these are by no means dry, academic, theoretical
considerations. If you haven't yet acquired the taste, you have a treat
in store. Go for it.
I was actually born with just intonation ears - so my music teacher at
school told me (or words to that effect).
C
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