I dont know what to tell you, Ken. I dont have a case study to reflect upon for you. You can either call personal experiences with removable media degradation arbitrary or not - you apparently chose to. So much for opinion. So you can chalk this up as an experiment for yourself at a later date if you ever have to deal with people that have to keep removable consumer media for whatever reasons. Hopefully you never have to and you can stay secure in your large environment control superiority.
We starting speaking on a specific topic, and you came in with dismissive arguments that continued to spiral out of the scope of the OP. Expanding the conversation is certainly welcomed, but you are using that expansion to be unnecessarily dismissive. -- Espi On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 3:23 AM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote: > So, this is what Kurt said (emphasis added)**** > > ** ** > > >> Perhaps the lesson to take from it is that *any media* older than 5 *** > * > > >> years should be destroyed...**** > > >>** ** > > >> Well, maybe that, and copy any data off to new media.**** > > ** ** > > And this is what you said (emphasis added):**** > > ** ** > > > My assumption would be that this was regarding *removable media*.**** > > ** ** > > And I would hope that this list is about sharing best practises, providing > advice based on experience and so forth, it seems that what’s being said > appears to be caveated with lots of unstated assumptions. I didn’t read > anything in either Kurt’s post or yours that this was talking about Zip > disks only. **** > > ** ** > > I didn’t “throw” anything into the mix. I took the words that where > written, and then tried to apply it to every single environment I’ve worked > in over the past 20 years, and it didn’t fit. **** > > ** ** > > So my next step is to try to query and challenge the advice given, to see > what the underlying drivers, requirements and assumptions are – to either > understand where my experience is lacking (and thus broaden my knowledge) > or to narrow down the use-cases where this would apply. So that I don’t > repeat potentially dangerous or misleading advice based on what long > standing members of this list advocate. In my world, this is called “doing > due diligence”. **** > > ** ** > > *Perhaps you see it as some kind of distraction or personal attack. > Please rest assured that this is not my intent, and I apologise if my tone > has caused offence.* > > ** ** > > > No, 5 years is not arbitrary**** > > ** ** > > FWIW I would still argue that 5 years is arbitrary because you haven’t > defined requirements or scope, you haven’t elucidated the risks of failure > vs. the risks and costs of implementing such a process, and I would > question a single person’s personal experience is statistically significant > (hence my statement on standards-based expected failure rates). What you > say might fly in a small org (hence my question – is this usual in SMEs? – > I don’t know – but would like to know) – it wouldn’t fly in larger orgs > that I’ve worked in (they tend to require more hard evidence – there’s a > tip for you)**** > > ** ** > > Cheers**** > > Ken**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Micheal Espinola Jr > *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 August 2013 7:55 PM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's**** > > ** ** > > Its certainly an interesting exercise to dissect whatever else you want to > throw in the mix to make some arbitrary point - but please recall that this > discussion started with Zip disks. Making points for enterprise policy and > storage requirements is great, but I dont understand why its being used as > a point of discussion/argument in this particular thread that was > discussing a Zip disk gone bad. I would think we are talking in terms of > Zip disk-type storage unless otherwise specifically stated.**** > > ** ** > > I think most will agree that recordable CDs, DVDs, BDs - like the > floppy-types before them, have a limited shelf life. When a certain amount > of time passes, its best to make a new copy on new media, as the disk will > inevitably go bad. If something must be stored on a storage device such as > these, this should be a consideration for the continued life cycle of the > data.**** > > ** ** > > No, 5 years is not arbitrary. I would assume for Kurt, as it is with me, > it is based on familiarity and experience with the media (see above or OP). > I put the fail rate closer to 10 years, but I would start thinking of > replacing at 5 years to ensure that the data is intact prior to failure.** > ** > > > **** > > -- > Espi**** > > **** > > ** ** > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote:**** > > And if your acceptable rate of loss is 1%, and 1% of these devices die > in 2 years, what’s the point of replacing them all in 5 years? **** > > Answer: pretty pointless.**** > > The point: 5 years is an arbitrary line in the sand that it seems IT > people are drawing regardless of business need**** > > Futhermore: your caveat of removable media could be anything from > enterprise LTO tape through to $1 USB flash drives, which have vastly > differing expected failure rates, and that makes a further mockery of some > arbitrary replacement policy.**** > > **** > > Surely it’d be better to have an information classification policy, and > depending on what classification the data is, you are required to store it > on certain media. Critical business data goes onto enterprise SAN or file > servers. Non-critical working data can be on local hard drives etc, and so > on for everything in-between.**** > > **** > > Why the business would choose to store anything on “consumer removable > media” I don’t really know. Individuals might for personal ease of working, > but I don’t really know any business that issues consumer level kit to > staff and says “here’s the approved storage – we’ll replace it in 5 year’s > time”. Maybe that’s more small business markets?**** > > **** > > Cheers**** > > Ken **** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Micheal Espinola Jr > *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 August 2013 5:38 PM**** > > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's**** > > **** > > Because consumer removable media has a known poor stored shelf-life and no > fault tolerance?**** > > > **** > > -- > Espi**** > > **** > > **** > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote:**** > > I’m curious to understand why that would change anything.**** > > **** > > Cheers**** > > Ken**** > > **** > > --**** > > http://au.linkedin.com/in/kschaefer**** > > Typed on a Lenovo Helix – apologies for brevity**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Micheal Espinola Jr > *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 August 2013 12:09 PM**** > > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's**** > > **** > > My assumption would be that this was regarding removable media.**** > > > **** > > -- > Espi**** > > **** > > **** > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote:**** > > Isn't 5 years a bit arbitrary? Don't most media have standards for > expected longevity and expected error rates over time? > > Maybe for your more critical data, your risk management plan would call > for rewriting the data to somewhere else, but mostly this is simply not > feasible at any scale, or especially if you're buying a service from a > service provider - e.g. we have EMC that manages our in-house SANs. We'd > probably be pretty foolish to write into the contract that they need to > replace all the hard drives in every SAN every 5 years. As a large bank (I > think we are 15th by market cap world wide), we have staggeringly large > amounts of data (as in the number of pieces of data, not necessarily the > raw size). Rewriting all of this every 5 years would be a hugely expensive > exercise, and not one we'd undertake without understanding the risks we're > mitigating (not to mention the risks we're introducing e.g. due to mistakes > that might be made) > > Cheers > Ken**** > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff**** > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2013 11:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > > Yes, not data destruction, but media replacement. It achieves two things: > > 1) verification of data on old media > 2) see #1 > > Kurt > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Jon Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think he is referring to the media needing to be replaced where > > possible by newer media ever 5 years. > > > > Jon > > > >> From: [email protected] > >> To: [email protected] > >> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 09:32:00 -0400 > >> Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > >> Where did "5 years" come from? That might not comply with some org's > >> policies. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Don Guyer > >> Catholic Health East - Information Technology Enterprise Directory & > >> Messaging Services > >> 3805 West Chester Pike, Suite 100, Newtown Square, Pa 19073 > >> email: [email protected] > >> Office: 610.550.3595 | Cell: 610.955.6528 | Fax: 610.271.9440 For > >> immediate assistance, please open a Service Desk ticket or call the > >> helpdesk @ 610-492-3839. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kurt Buff > >> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 10:05 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > >> Perhaps the lesson to take from it is that any media older than 5 > >> years should be destroyed... > >> > >> Well, maybe that, and copy any data off to new media. > >> > >> Kurt > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Jon Harris <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > Micheal the eraser helped some and Sam despite you making a joke > >> > your trick worked to some degree as well. I think as Daniel and > >> > Micheal pointed out the antistatic was/is sticking to the actual > >> > disk. I will try a modification of Daniel's idea and freeze thaw it > >> > and see if I can get it unstuck without damaging the disk. The > >> > first one I tried is at least now doing something but it is giving > >> > me the "click of death". To answer my own question I found no wood > >> > pencils in the office but did find a couple of mechanical pencils > >> > within the network group. One of the secretaries/clerks/helpdesk > >> > staff had a pen with a very nice eraser which I liberated and will > >> > be returning to keep her happy. > >> > > >> > Professional retrieval was never an option. The data is not > >> > relevant to current business needs and was more for historical > >> > desire/needs of the client. Once all recoverable data is recovered > >> > the client wants all previous media formats destroyed to prevent > >> > future requests from this media being possible. I suspect that the > >> > client was pushed to look for something by someone else and now > >> > wants to make sure this never happens again. Funny thing is the > >> > client never even gave me an idea of WHAT they were actually > >> > looking for, I don't think they know what they were looking for, not > that it matters. > >> > > >> > I will update the list, as to me at least, this has been > >> > instructive to some degree. > >> > > >> > Jon > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:37:13 -0500 > >> > Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > From: [email protected] > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > > >> > Blow in it like an old Nintendo game! > >> > > >> > Warning: Don't listen to me. > >> > > >> > On Aug 2, 2013 4:22 PM, "Daniel Chenault" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > Put it in a Baggie and freeze it overnight. Then try to get some > >> > movement > >> > (gently!) and let it warm back to room temp and see if the > >> > contraction and expansion jarred it loose. > >> > Failing that: it's not a sealed enclosure from what I remember. Set > >> > it up decently clean space, wear gloves and disassemble it. Use a > >> > q-tip and denatured alcohol to clean all possible sticky points. > >> > Reassemble and cross your fingers. > >> > If all else fails there's the expensive data retrieval services. > >> > Only you or mgmt can determine if the data is worth it. > >> > > >> > And all this science I don't understand It's just my job five days > >> > a week > >> > > >> > Elton John "Rocket Man" > >> > > >> > On Aug 2, 2013, at 15:54, "Micheal Espinola Jr" > >> > <[email protected]> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > :-) Other than that, I'm pretty sure they are just like traditional > >> > floppies, and are floating in between two layers of antistatic > >> > felt-like material. There shouldnt be anything to worry about in > >> > terms of breaking any mechanics. > >> > > >> > Giving this more thought, something I can recall from many years > >> > ago in dealing with similar issues, was lightly twisting the casing. > >> > Holding the disk with two hands, use one hand to twist in one > >> > directions, while simultaneously twisting in the opposite direction > >> > with the other hand. > >> > > >> > This would be something akin to trying to twist and break it - but > >> > you want to do it very lightly in order to break the vaporlock (for > >> > lack of a better way to describe it) inside the disk. I have done > >> > this with 3.5in floppies - and it may work with Zip disks too. > >> > > >> > Good luck! > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Espi > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Jon Harris <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > I have been able to get some movement, lateral only and very little > >> > even then, (forgot the pencil eraser trick) but could not get it to > >> > revolve around the center hole. I will see if I can find a pencil, > >> > do people still use them? > >> > > >> > Jon > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: [email protected] > >> > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 13:07:13 -0700 > >> > Subject: Re: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > > >> > > >> > Oh, physically frozen? IIRC, the disk is free-floating in its > >> > housing, with an exposed metal disk on its underside that is at the > >> > center of the magnetic media. Have you tried using your fingers (or > >> > perhaps pencil erasers) to manually try to spin it? Have you tried > >> > giving it a light shake? > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Espi > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Harris <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > Nope no sound at all. I think the disk is frozen within the housing > >> > but I don't have the tools to look at this without destruction of > >> > the housing or the disk. I almost wish it were the click of death > >> > at least then I would know. > >> > > >> > Jon > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: [email protected] > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: RE: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 09:56:31 -0500 > >> > > >> > > >> > Click of Death?... > >> > > >> > Oh ZIP Disks…. [Shudders] > >> > > >> > From: [email protected] > >> > [mailto:[email protected]] > >> > On Behalf Of Jon Harris > >> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 9:28 PM > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: [NTSysADM] Anyone have a trick for ZIP's > >> > > >> > I have some ZIP disks that appear to be frozen i.e. will not turn. > >> > I would really like to get a look at the contents of these disks. > >> > Anyone have any tricks for freeing them up again? They have not > >> > been touched in years possibly as many as 10 maybe more. From the > >> > ones I have been able to get data from the last dates were early to > mid 2000. > >> > > >> > Thanks for any ideas, > >> > > >> > Jon > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Confidentiality Notice: > >> This e-mail, including any attachments is the property of Catholic > >> Health East and is intended for the sole use of the intended > >> recipient(s). > >> It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any > >> unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. > >> If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message, > >> and reply to the sender regarding the error in a separate email. > >>**** > > **** > > **** > > ** ** >
