Thanks for the feedback guys. Stu
From: Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:44 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Hey Stu - hard to say from just the advertising onsite, but such products can certainly be helpful. Nothing particularly new that I can see unless they have some stunning USP that hasn't been seen in other such products over the last 10 years or so. Being relatively new to market, they certainly have the opportunity to be clean and lean rather than bloated and adapted (you know .. the Symantec kinda way!) ;o) a ________________________________ From: Stu Sjouwerman [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> Sent: 14 March 2012 17:41 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Guys, could you do me a favor, have a look at this product (it's relevant to the discussion) and tell me what you think about this new kind of functionality? Thanks ! http://www.knowbe4.com/products/instant-revert/ Stu From: Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:40 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues You're right - you don't see SANS all that often on JDs (though DoD ask for it and a few other US agencies .. I'm UK based and you also see it a bit more here now including some Home Office/Intelligence areas). However, I've always found it something of a talking point in interviews, and having the written assignments published (what's called a Gold certification these days) can also help demonstrate writing skills and ability to explain highly technical data clearly. Personally, I find GSEC (and therefore CISSP since they're 75% similar) a nightmare to study for! Too much information .. 10 miles high and 1cm deep. Much prefer the "harder" certs where you go really deep in one area like GCIH. The main advantage of SANS certs however is their instructors and content - the ability to hit the ground running afterwards. You will do your job better after attending unless you are God-like already! Anyway, I feel the OT giant coming to tickle me, so I'll hush now before a huge conversation on certifications starts up! =) a ________________________________ From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> Sent: 13 March 2012 15:49 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Yeah going to need it, got less time than CISSP to study for this one, but I know 3-5 domains cold from the CISSP so that is just a review, I just need to think about stuff through the auditors eyes. Looking for a pass the first time, and then off to C.E.H and CRISC in December. I have been thinking about the SANS certifications but I just don't see a clammering for them in the job places. I was looking to possibly go the GSNA route which would tie in with my CISA (when I get it) GL On your GSEC re-cert you should ace that pretty easy, GCIH is a little harder but not unachieveable. Z Edward Ziots CISSP, Security +, Network + Security Engineer Lifespan Organization [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]]<mailto:[mailto:[email protected]]> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:04 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Yup, no disagreement there .. my response was more to Stu's point in that what he described can help increase security in a very general manner in an organisation, but really the business context is where the value is. Good luck with the CISA! I'm re-certifying my GSEC again at the moment and GCIH this time next year, so also under a weight of study and prep! ;o) a ________________________________ From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 13 March 2012 12:59 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Alan, I totally agree, that is why I always vet the scans I get from any VA scan and qualitatively risk prioritize them based on what is critical for the business. Again with healthcare its protection of the CIA of EPHI when stored, transmitted or processed and any and all systems that are in the eco-system of that processing. The scans are done as part testing of the controls of an information system, but it is not a means to an end nor is its findings absolutely material to an auditor in determining the controls or lack thereof in an information system, there are plenty of other things that an auditor must consider via the ISACA auditing standard ( trust me I am going to be taking my CISA in june, and there is a lot more to it than I even understood, because I was only looking at it from the Risk Management and Compliance aspect, and totally missed all the pieces that make up Governance) But I do agree Auditors are usually not technical enough to go deep enough into the technologies and find the trust issues so they can be raised to management and corrective actions to be taken, this is one of the issues I have always had sometimes when dealing with auditors ( especially from the big 4 firms, they have had little or no background in systems administration, security engineering, database management, and other core responsibilities in the areas they are to audit, therefore they usually don't have the technical expertise needs to complete what needs to be done on the audit. ( which kinda goes contracting to what the ISACA auditing standards require)( Z Edward Ziots CISSP, Security +, Network + Security Engineer Lifespan Organization [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 4:59 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues I still argue that all that aside (and it can be valuable), what I generally want if I'm in need of a quality piece of work to free up time is a PT engagement where the testers are made fully aware of the business context of the system they are testing and the risks and exec summary framed in that context. Lack of SSL on an inside VLAN may be something to fix in time, but it's a heck of a lot less important than the public Internet facing one; access to a social committee intranet server less important than a customer DB - stupidly simplistic, but you get the idea. Canned scans are for obliging the tickbox-generation auditors and general information. Business context is the only way to a valid remedial plan of action. a ________________________________ From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 12 March 2012 19:20 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Yeah well it seems that I am digging a mile deep with a few of my own tools ( Backtrack, Nmap, Rapid 7 Nexpose, Metasploit) to verify what the issues are based on a Qualys Scan that a outside organization didn't have the time to "validate" the findings, so its been a real joy digging through 100's of pages of qualys scan information. Nessus is ok but seen the false positives with those also, Z Edward Ziots CISSP, Security +, Network + Security Engineer Lifespan Organization [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Stu Sjouwerman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:55 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues That's what we do for our customers here. We scan with Nessus, but provide a shortlist of the real dangerous low hanging fruit and we poke around a bit, and do a conference call where we show them what the problem is. Warm regards, Stu From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:36 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Thanks, I am glad I am not the only one. Now if someone followed the Penetration test Execution Standard, and did a real Pen test and validated the business risks, then I would be impressed, so back to chewing through this Qualys scan and making heads or tails of what needs to be fixed and what isn't a big risk. Z Edward Ziots CISSP, Security +, Network + Security Engineer Lifespan Organization [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:25 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues You pays for what you gets ... even reports of actions that go beyond VA into PT still aren't a proper PT engagement if they're not in a meaningful report, written in English! Having said that, sometimes you just want to know if something can be broken and do the rest yourself. Rarely though .. I have 1better things to do with my time than translating someone else's results into an Exec Summary and business context specific findings Rant welcome :o) a ________________________________ From: Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 05 March 2012 13:12 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant continues Not sure if anyone on the list is responsible for Vul Scanning in their organizations/business or Pen testing there systems, but it still blows my mind that we have folks out there providing services to organizations and business calling the output from a Qualys or Nessus vulnerability scanner a Pen-test. I am current been going through someone else work for about 1.5 weeks validating the scanners findings on the systems, so I can get working on slimming down a 225 page report to something that is realistic and achievable. Sorry about the rant, it isn't how I wanted to start my Monday morning. 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