I've taken a few SANS courses over the years - the week long, drink from a
fire hose marathons - and found them to be hands-down the best training
ever.

-Jeff Steward

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Alan Davies <[email protected]>wrote:

> **
> You're right - you don't see SANS all that often on JDs (though DoD ask
> for it and a few other US agencies .. I'm UK based and you also see it a
> bit more here now including some Home Office/Intelligence areas).  However,
> I've always found it something of a talking point in interviews, and having
> the written assignments published (what's called a Gold certification these
> days) can also help demonstrate writing skills and ability to explain
> highly technical data clearly.
>
> Personally, I find GSEC (and therefore CISSP since they're 75% similar) a
> nightmare to study for!  Too much information .. 10 miles high and 1cm
> deep.  Much prefer the "harder" certs where you go really deep in one area
> like GCIH.  The main advantage of SANS certs however is their instructors
> and content - the ability to hit the ground running afterwards.  You will
> do your job better after attending unless you are God-like already!
>
> Anyway, I feel the OT giant coming to tickle me, so I'll hush now before a
> huge conversation on certifications starts up! =)
>
>
>
> a
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* 13 March 2012 15:49
>
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues
>
>  Yeah going to need it, got less time than CISSP to study for this one,
> but I know 3-5 domains cold from the CISSP so that is just a review, I just
> need to think about stuff through the auditors eyes. Looking for a pass the
> first time, and then off to C.E.H and CRISC in December. I have been
> thinking about the SANS certifications but I just don’t see a clammering
> for them in the job places. I was looking to possibly go the GSNA route
> which would tie in with my CISA (when I get it)****
>
> ** **
>
> GL On your GSEC re-cert you should ace that pretty easy, GCIH is a little
> harder but not unachieveable. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Z****
>
> ** **
>
> Edward Ziots****
>
> CISSP, Security +, Network +****
>
> Security Engineer****
>
> Lifespan Organization****
>
> [email protected]****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Alan Davies [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:04 AM
>
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> ** **
>
> Yup, no disagreement there .. my response was more to Stu's point in that
> what he described can help increase security in a very general manner in an
> organisation, but really the business context is where the value is.****
>
>  ****
>
> Good luck with the CISA!  I'm re-certifying my GSEC again at the moment
> and GCIH this time next year, so also under a weight of study and prep! ;o)
> ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> a****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
> *Sent:* 13 March 2012 12:59
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues
> ****
>
> Alan, ****
>
> ** **
>
> I totally agree, that is why I always vet the scans I get from any VA scan
> and qualitatively risk prioritize them based on what is critical for the
> business. Again with healthcare its protection of the CIA of EPHI when
> stored, transmitted or processed and any and all systems that are in the
> eco-system of that processing. ****
>
> ** **
>
> The scans are done as part testing of the controls of an information
> system, but it is not a means to an end nor is its findings absolutely
> material to an auditor in determining the controls or lack thereof in an
> information system, there are plenty of other things that an auditor must
> consider via the ISACA auditing standard ( trust me I am going to be taking
> my CISA in june, and there is a lot more to it than I even understood,
> because I was only looking at it from the Risk Management and Compliance
> aspect, and totally missed all the pieces that make up Governance)****
>
> ** **
>
> But I do agree Auditors are usually not technical enough to go deep enough
> into the technologies and find the trust issues so they can be raised to
> management and corrective actions to be taken, this is one of the issues I
> have always had sometimes when dealing with auditors ( especially from the
> big 4 firms, they have had little or no background in systems
> administration, security engineering, database management, and other core
> responsibilities in the areas they are to audit, therefore they usually
> don’t have the technical expertise needs to complete what needs to be done
> on the audit. ( which kinda goes contracting to what the ISACA auditing
> standards require)(****
>
> ** **
>
> Z****
>
> ** **
>
> Edward Ziots****
>
> CISSP, Security +, Network +****
>
> Security Engineer****
>
> Lifespan Organization****
>
> [email protected]****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Alan Davies 
> [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>]
>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2012 4:59 PM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> ** **
>
> I still argue that all that aside (and it can be valuable), what I
> generally want if I'm in need of a quality piece of work to free up time is
> a PT engagement where the testers are made fully aware of the business
> context of the system they are testing and the risks and exec summary
> framed in that context.  Lack of SSL on an inside VLAN may be something to
> fix in time, but it's a heck of a lot less important than the public
> Internet facing one; access to a social committee intranet server less
> important than a customer DB - stupidly simplistic, but you get the idea.*
> ***
>
>  ****
>
> Canned scans are for obliging the tickbox-generation auditors and general
> information.  Business context is the only way to a valid remedial plan of
> action.****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> a****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
> *Sent:* 12 March 2012 19:20
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> Yeah well it seems that I am digging a mile deep with a few of my own
> tools ( Backtrack, Nmap, Rapid 7 Nexpose, Metasploit) to verify what the
> issues are based on a Qualys Scan that a outside organization didn’t have
> the time to “validate” the findings, so its been a real joy digging through
> 100’s of pages of qualys scan information. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Nessus is ok but seen the false positives with those also, ****
>
> ** **
>
> Z****
>
> ** **
>
> Edward Ziots****
>
> CISSP, Security +, Network +****
>
> Security Engineer****
>
> Lifespan Organization****
>
> [email protected]****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Stu Sjouwerman 
> [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>]
>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 12, 2012 2:55 PM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> ** **
>
> That’s what we do for our customers here. We scan with Nessus, but provide
> a shortlist of the real dangerous low hanging fruit and we poke around a
> bit, and do a conference call where we show them what the problem is. ****
>
> Warm regards,****
>
> Stu ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
> *Sent:* Monday, March 05, 2012 8:36 AM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks, I am glad I am not the only one. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Now if someone followed the Penetration test Execution Standard, and did a
> real Pen test and validated the business risks, then I would be impressed,
> so back to chewing through this Qualys scan and making heads or tails of
> what needs to be fixed and what isn’t a big risk. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Z****
>
> ** **
>
> Edward Ziots****
>
> CISSP, Security +, Network +****
>
> Security Engineer****
>
> Lifespan Organization****
>
> [email protected]****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Alan Davies 
> [mailto:[email protected]<[email protected]>]
>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 05, 2012 8:25 AM
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* RE: Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> ** **
>
> You pays for what you gets ... even reports of actions that go beyond VA
> into PT still aren't a proper PT engagement if they're not in a meaningful
> report, written in English!****
>
>  ****
>
> Having said that, sometimes you just want to know if something can be
> broken and do the rest yourself.  Rarely though .. I have 1better things to
> do with my time than translating someone else's results into an Exec
> Summary and business context specific findings****
>
>  ****
>
> Rant welcome :o)****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> a****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ziots, Edward [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
> *Sent:* 05 March 2012 13:12
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* Vulnerability scanning, and calling it a Pen test the rant
> continues****
>
> Not sure if anyone on the list is responsible for Vul Scanning in their
> organizations/business or Pen testing there systems, but it still blows my
> mind that we have folks out there providing services to organizations and
> business calling the output from a Qualys or Nessus vulnerability scanner a
> Pen-test.  I am current been going through someone else work for about 1.5
> weeks validating the scanners findings on the systems, so I can get working
> on slimming down a 225 page report to something that is realistic and
> achievable. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Sorry about the rant, it isn’t how I wanted to start my Monday morning. **
> **
>
> ** **
>
> Z****
>
> ** **
>
> Edward Ziots****
>
> CISSP, Security +, Network +****
>
> Security Engineer****
>
> Lifespan Organization****
>
> [email protected]****
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~
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