You are odd, yes! On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > *From:* Daniel Rodriguez [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Friday, 6 February 2009 11:06 AM > *To:* NT System Admin Issues > *Subject:* Re: SUSPECT: RE: MCSE question > > > > Ken, > > I would have to disagree with that. > > To have Practical Experience you do have to have 'some' understanding of > the theory of what they are doing. Else, they wouldn't know how, and why, it > is important. > > You don��™t need to have a theoretical understanding of Active Directory > to be able to perform operational tasks ��" add users, link GPOs, perform > restores, ec > > There are plenty of ops guys that I interview every year that say they > ar����œstro���� in Active Directory (���™ve even had a few that say they > ar����œstro���� with IIS, but I can usually dissuade them about that J). > But as soon as we take them through a design exercise for a fictitious > company and sa����œtell me about Site Link Bridgin��� o����œtell me about GC > placement ��" how does a GC do its work and how does that impact your > design�� I start to see a bit of hesitancy. > > Now, an MCSE is not going to teach you all that stuff. But people who can > undertake structured study ��" not just research things that confront them > in th����œhere and n���� make better consultants/architects than those that > ca���™t (all other things being equal). > > If I were a manager, and was looking to hire a tech, I would ask them how > long they had been in this industry and how long they have had their cert's, > if any. I am looking for someone who knows the work. I am also looking for > someone who can think quickly and knows how to apply their knowledge across > different disciplines. > > Of course we are all looking for great hires that have great initiative, > great attitude, great knowledge, great experience and so on. Not all of them > will have MCSEs. But if I see someone who makes an effort to go out and get > their certification (and has some work experience as well), then that person > (all other things being equal) will be ahead in my books. Not only do they > have practical experience from the things that they actually did, they > should also have some theoretical knowledge about the product and ����™s > features that they have���™t yet used. And when you go to a customer you > need to know a bit about as much as possible, so you can discuss options. On > the other hand, if all you have is a hammer, then problem looks like a nail. > I do my certs because I like studying new things���" learning about products > and what they can do. The certs are just there to prove to myself that I can > pass a test. But then again, I run 7 servers in my own apartment and have 10 > other computers, so I��™m probably a bit odd. > > Cheers > Ken > > > I don't have my MCSE, but I have been administering networks since the late > 80's. I have admin'd Novell, up to version 5, a SCO Unix server, RISC 6000 > servers, and multitudes of NT 4.0, 2000/2003 Servers. I have experience with > Active Directory and GPO. I have been admin'd Cisco Routers and Switches > when they were OEM'd to IBM. I got a contract to be an Assistant Network > Admin and was instrumental in setting up a disaster recovery for their MS > SQL 2000 server. I setup a Virtual Server on their 2003 box and took a > snapshot of the SQL Server. Migrated the data off the SQL internal drives to > a JBOD. Showed management that if this server should die that we could be up > in 20 minutes, or less, with the Virtual Server failover configuration. This > was back in 2005. > > Did I have my MCSE Cert? No. But I did understand the theories in order to > get this to work. Yes, I did have to do research, but at least I knew what > to look up and who to go to to get my questions answered. Nearly everything > that I know has been by hands on learning and experience. > > If I were a manager, and was looking to hire a tech, I would ask them how > long they had been in this industry and how long they have had their cert's, > if any. I am looking for someone who knows the work. I am also looking for > someone who can think quickly and knows how to apply their knowledge across > different disciplines. > > Story I read once, and it has helped me in many situations (this story is > old as it references a time when someone would actually pump your gas); > > Woman is distraught because her son got hold of a ring and put it on his > finger, and now it was stuck. She tried to remove the ring, but her son's > finger was swelling up. So she called the doctor's office and they said to > bring him in. > When she got there, the doctor looked at the finger and said that the > swelling was getting worse and that they may need to amputate the finger or > else an infection would set in. > So the woman takes her son to the hospital. > Along the way, she notices that she needs to get some gasoline, or else she > won't make it to the hospital. She pulls into a gas station. The gas > attendant walks up and asks her what she needs. She blurts out that she > needs to get some gas to get her son to the hospital because of his hand. > The attendant ask to see her son's hand. He examines it for a second and ask > her to bring her son to the work bay. He gets her son to sit down and he > pulls out some string from a drawer. The attendant proceeds to wrap the > string around the finger just in front of the ring. As he wraps the string > around the finger, he makes it a bit tighter than the previous round. This > makes the boy's finger a little smaller and allows the attendant to move the > ring up the finger. > Eventually, the attendant is able to get the ring off. > > Now, this story shows two schools of thought. A doctor. who is certified > and has many years of schooling, determined that amputation was necessary > for this situation. The attendant at the gas station knew from experience, > that he didn't need to squeeze the entire finger to get the ring off. He > just needed to squeeze a little area at a time to move the ring past a > certain point. > > My point to this story is this; Even though you have someone who is > certified, but with little or no experience, they may not be able to give > the best answer to a problem. But, someone with experience will rely on past > situations to come up with the best answer to a problem. > > My $.02. > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Ken Schaefer <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Sounds like a guy who doesn't know what he's doing. > > > > But MCSEs (or CCNAs or CISSPs) aren't tested on whether you can create > shortcuts on desktops. > > > > Someone who's just read a bunch of books and then gone and passed some > exams probably isn't going to be able to do a lot in a practical situation. > But there are plenty of people who have practical experience who don't > understand the theory behind what they are doing. > > > > Cheers > > Ken > > > > *From:* Jacob [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Friday, 6 February 2009 9:45 AM > > > *To:* NT System Admin Issues > *Subject:* RE: SUSPECT: RE: MCSE question > > > > We hired an MCSE who did not know how to create a shortcut on a desktop. > Not kidding. Really.. not kidding. > > > > He lasted about one week. > > > > *From:* Garcia-Moran, Carlos [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:42 PM > *To:* NT System Admin Issues > *Subject:* RE: SUSPECT: RE: MCSE question > > > > For the most part I'm a firm believer that Certs and Test's are no longer > what they used to be. I've been doing IT for around 15+ years, I had an MCP, > never bothered to make it into an MCSE. It wasn't worth it to me. I wouldn't > have learned nothing taking a class that I didn't learn from mentors / peers > / my own research and reading. Requiring an MCSE for a position is a joke, > would you pay the person more? Salaries rarely ever go up it you take Certs. > > > > Let me tell you a quick story about certs I was working for a company once > and I was the supervisor of a 5 person desktop IT team. They decided to > hire a more senior guy once one of my team members left, I wasn't involved > in the process except for giving my bosses needs /wants for the position. > Well they hired an MCSE guy that had more certs that I could shake a stick > at. Well after about two months of working together and him consistently > failing to do simple things, like If 4 of us could print and he couldn't he > would start taking the printer network device apart since that had to be the > problem. I sat down and drilled him about his skills , prior to his hiring > he was a carpenter but decided to switch jobs he did a 6 month tech stint a > small company as desktop support and then took a Boot camp MCSE, which was > the major factor in the hiring process that my bosses used. He was USELESS! > > > > *From:* Brian Desmond [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:29 PM > *To:* NT System Admin Issues > *Subject:* RE: SUSPECT: RE: MCSE question > > > > *Someone who knows what they're doing should be able to demonstrate that > they can do that without an MCSE. I know a bunch of REALLY good Windows > people who have no MS certs and never will. * > > * * > > *Likewise, someone who knows pretty much nothing but is good at taking > tests can be an MCSE without much trouble. * > > * * > > *Thanks,* > > *Brian Desmond* > > *[email protected]* > > * * > > *c - 312.731.3132* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~
