Hi Hervé,

the flow you outline is equivalent to CIBA 
(https://openid.net/specs/openid-client-initiated-backchannel-authentication-core-1_0-ID1.html).
 

RFC8628/device grant type and CIBA differ as follows:

- RFC8628 provides the client with an URL for the authorisation process
- CIBA requires the client to provide a user identifier to the AS/OP, the AS in 
turn uses an out of band mechanism to communicate with the user 

best regards,
Torsten. 

> On 26. Nov 2019, at 09:26, Robache Hervé <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Dear all
>  
> Thanks again for your clarifications. After discussion with the French 
> community, we think that a full decoupled flow could be the following one
>  
> <image002.png>
>  
> From my perspective, this flow  is very similar to RFC8628 or CIBA, except 
> the following difference: instead of providing the customer with the 
> authentication URI through the third party, the bank notifies directly the 
> customer on a specific device or mobile app.
>  
> Do you have any thought on this flow?
>  
> Thanks in advance
>  
> Hervé
>  
> De : Robache Hervé 
> Envoyé : lundi 18 novembre 2019 15:21
> À : 'Joseph Heenan'; Torsten Lodderstedt
> Cc : [email protected]
> Objet : [OAUTH-WG] Question regarding RFC 8628
>  
> Thanks Joseph
>  
> I agree with you. There should be no issue when the URL is registered during 
> the TPP app installation.
>  
> From my perspective, this URL should be passed during the authorization 
> request within the [redirect_uri] field.
>  
> By the way, most of the French banks will use Oauth2 AC and not OpenId 
> Connect. I guess that the sequence diagram is roughly the same, isn’t it?
>  
> Best regards
>  
> Hervé
>  
> De : Joseph Heenan [mailto:[email protected]] 
> Envoyé : lundi 18 novembre 2019 14:49
> À : Torsten Lodderstedt
> Cc : Robache Hervé; [email protected]
> Objet : Re: [OAUTH-WG] Question regarding RFC 8628
>  
> Hi all,
>  
> Thanks, Torsten.
>  
> 
> On 18 Nov 2019, at 13:22, Torsten Lodderstedt <[email protected]> wrote:
>  
> Hi Hervé,
> 
> looping in Joseph.
> 
> 
> On 18. Nov 2019, at 21:17, Robache Hervé <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Torsten
> 
> Yes, we study this flow as well. Actually we consider the two following flows 
> for a mobile-based authentication
> 
> -          DECOUPLED : via a RFC8628-derived or CIBA approach (as suggested 
> by Rob)
> -          REDIRECT : via the flow specified in the OpenId link you gave.
> 
> The main issue encountered so far is to give back the focus on the third 
> party app. Third Parties fear that their app will be kept in the back of the 
> mobile screen.
> 
> @Joseph: what’s your take on this concern? 
>  
> In app2app, it really shouldn’t happen - if the device OS has not properly 
> registered the universal link, the TPP website would open instead and 
> authorization code can still be processed (though admittedly supporting this 
> use case may require a bit more care to ensure session mixup attacks can’t 
> happen).
>  
> 
>  
> 
> This could happen when the TPP app [app link]/[universal link] is not 
> properly registered or forwarded to the bank app.
> -          In the REDIRECT approach this means that the authorization code 
> cannot be forwarded to the TPP
>  
> I don’t really understand how the ‘app link’ would not be properly registered 
> to the bank app. The universal link should be the same URL as for the 
> redirect uri on the TPP website. Obviously if the TPP registers their 
> redirect uri incorrectly with the bank the flow won’t work, but this applies 
> equally to the web based flows, and it’s not the kind of problem you see 
> occur on a production system.
>  
> The evidence from the UK so far is that drop-off rates (where the user does 
> not successfully complete the authentication and return to the third party) 
> are far lower for app2app compared to a normal oauth2 browser based redirect 
> flow; I can’t put my hand on the actual figures right now but from memory 
> around 5 times more users successfully completed an app2app flow than the 
> usual web flows.
>  
> 
> -          In the DECOUPLED approach it less critical since the TPP polls the 
> bank and eventually gets its token once the PSU has authenticated.
> 
> But in the decoupled flow, the PSU first has to enter her PSU ID in order to 
> allow the TPP to identity the PSU towards the ASPSP. This is less convenient 
> and leaks PII.
>  
> Not necessarily the PSU ID, but generally something that can be used to 
> identify the user. In theory it could be an ephemeral id, though in reality 
> there’s all sorts of issues with implementing that, particularly on a ’same 
> device’ flow. It’s definitely less convenient, particularly for the first 
> TPP<->ASPSP interaction where the TPP will necessarily have to collect more 
> info from the user than would be necessary in a redirect based flow.
>  
> The user also has to manually switch back to the TPP app at the end of the 
> flow.
>  
> My general opinion is that for most use cases where the consumption and 
> authentication devices are the same device a decoupled flow should not be 
> used, as for that use case app2app presents a far better user experience - 
> both in terms of the number of steps and the time taken to successfully 
> complete all the steps.
>  
> Joseph
>  
> 
> 
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