Thanks John for these comments and I think you have summed up where I think we should be.
On Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 3:06 PM John Bryant via Oceania < [email protected]> wrote: > This has been on my mind as well. I really appreciate all the thoughtful > comments in this discussion; I'd left Hobart wondering if anyone had > feelings about the ESRI sponsorship, as I did. > > It wasn't a great feeling in general. I didn't love that ESRI was > promoting ArcGIS at a FOSS4G, or that they were given a sponsor stage slot. > In particular, I was disappointed to see ESRI invited to the travel grant > breakfast. I'm generally not fond of seeing sponsors gain privileged access > to spaces that aren't available to others, and it's especially upsetting > when it's a player with a history of dubious treatment of our community. > > Like many others in our community, I've witnessed behaviour from ESRI (and > its agents) that I consider antithetical to our values. It often seems many > passionate open source geospatial advocates have an origin story that > begins with a negative encounter with ESRI (myself included). > > Obviously, given the comments in this thread, there are still raw and > unresolved feelings about ESRI's relationship with our community. WIth that > in mind, I'm not a fan of seeing ESRI as a sponsor of our events. > > I'm hopeful that ESRI may someday show itself to be a good open source > citizen, and perhaps we can have a positive influence in that direction. > Like Byron suggests, we can't do that if we don't engage. I feel our best > strategy for engagement is to invite ESRI to attend our conferences, to > tell stories that connect with our community (subject to the same selection > processes as everyone else), and gain its place by building relationships > and demonstrating good behaviour over time. For now, I don't think we're > there. > > It's been suggested we shouldn't be "divisive". Until there's consensus in > our community that ESRI is a friendly player, it's difficult to imagine a > more divisive action than prominently placing its brand on our main event. > > My 2c. > > John > > On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 at 19:56, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Thanks for the presentations Alex, I have been binge watching! >> >> I echo Ems comments, it's great that we can have this discussion openly >> like this, I really appreciate everyone's contribution and the OO board >> members encouraging this to happen in the open. >> >> I do however feel like we need to keep the thread on topic, as the >> original question in the thread was "What's the deal with ESRI being a >> sponsor?" >> >> I know Alex's message was to add context to the discussion by adding >> Kate's keynote and I can see it's helped people clear up thoughts which is >> great and worthwhile to the conversation. However I'd like us to not steer >> the conversation unintentionally to a place where it's focusing on the >> presenters as that was never my intention. As I mentioned previously I >> heard it was great, and now after watching I can confirm that it was on >> point as Alex said. >> >> I'm hoping that the meeting minutes from the OO board meeting will >> clarify a few things regarding the question of "What's the deal with >> ESRI being a sponsor?". I wish now, with the benefit of hindsight, that I >> would have asked a clearer and more direct set of questions such as: >> 1) Why was ESRI considered a suitable sponsor? >> 2) If the OO board monitors progress of the LOC and provides guidance, >> why did they not see that this is a potentially risky sponsorship? Or did >> they think it was fine? Did anyone involved in the LOC or OO board raise >> concerns? >> 3) Based on the number of people that have commented with their less >> than desirable ESRI related experiences, does the board think this >> sponsorship choice missed the mark? >> 4) Is the LOC and OO board considering ESRI sponsorship for the global >> event in 2025? >> >> I'm not saying those questions have to be answered, but that's what has >> been floating around my head the past few weeks interrupted briefly by xmas >> ham and prawns. >> >> Thanks again for the input. >> >> Andrew >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 3:36 PM Emma Hain via Oceania < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi All >>> The great thing about a strong community is that we discuss things, >>> learn, change, or hold steadfast to our values and everyone is respected >>> for their position but we can see pass these views and still have a great >>> community. >>> >>> In regards to Kate's presentation, I did have issues with it but >>> rewatching it has resolved some of the issues - so thank you Alex: >>> 1) The derision of FOSS4G through the comical comment at 09:15 - her >>> response was actually quite good saying you can use both. >>> 2) Marketing of ESRI's firewire - apologies here - I believed that this >>> was a closed product but it is open.I think this was clouded by what the >>> people at the ESRI desk were marketing. >>> >>> Byron, what you have written shows such a peek to an understanding on >>> the internal machinations that we should take heed. It must be hard for >>> the people on the ground, when the wishes of those who sit in management >>> don't support their movement and support of FOSS4G. Perhaps Kate is >>> fighting an uphill battle and we give a bit of leeway, as long as the >>> developed guidelines based on FOSS4G principles are followed. >>> >>> The complexity I think shouldn't be put on a few, I personally am not >>> loving all the time I am taking on this when I could be undertaking work >>> for Disaster mapping. However, I see this is important for the community so >>> it is a priority for me. I urge you to speak up - either way - to help >>> steer this conference in the direction that is right for us this year. >>> >>> To encourage anyone to be an ethical player in this community, and they >>> succeeding in this, should be the outcome of whatever we do as long as we >>> look to the safety and preservation of our community's culture. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Em >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:36 PM Byron via Oceania < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Thanks Alex for this well presented response. >>>> >>>> I too have little quibble with Kate’s presentation, but do feel a bit >>>> uncomfortable with ESRI’s presence at FOSS4G. Not so much that I do not >>>> think they shouldn't be there, but enough that I would like to see them >>>> kept on a tight leash. >>>> >>>> My own experience with ESRI that leads me to doubt their intentions >>>> comes from my experiences with ESRI Redlands HQ. I have found their support >>>> a bit disingenuous and their business approaches often undermine FOSS >>>> efforts. >>>> >>>> Yet I still deal with them on occasion - mostly in the realm of >>>> international standards bodies. Which is kind of interesting in that they >>>> have no one on staff who know open standards enough to contribute directly. >>>> I find this problematic in the FOSS space because FOSS relies heavily on >>>> open standards. >>>> >>>> Yes ESRI has some open source projects. The one with which I am most >>>> familiar is GeoPortal. This is almost a clone of GeoNetwork. They do not >>>> engage with GeoNetwork to speak of nor do GN people seem welcome on the GP >>>> team. The project seems to be positioned to undermine a well established >>>> FOSS4G project. Luckily it is not succeeding. Mostly it succeeds at being a >>>> figleaf for saying they support FOSS4G. >>>> >>>> While they do support GDAL, they do so for selfish reasons - it is a >>>> cheap way to get some good functionality that they can charge for. Nothing >>>> wrong with that. I was in talks with ESRI VP Satish Sankaran about >>>> developing a similar OS package for metadata. He thought Jack D would go >>>> for it, as they no longer have this type of expertise in house, but the >>>> idea went nowhere. Satish indicated that Jack was only lukewarm to FOSS and >>>> GDAL was a bit of an exception that Jack may or may not go for again in the >>>> future with other FOSS efforts. >>>> >>>> In practice, I have found ESRI is quite hostile to FOSS4G software and >>>> lukewarm to the standards that underlie it. They are very comfortable with >>>> vendor lock in. They claim to support open standards and interoperability, >>>> but they do so just enough to check that box. In practice, there are so >>>> many bugs in their interoperability that users give up and just buy ESRI. >>>> That is by design. >>>> >>>> ESRI also like to undermine our customer base by badmouthing FOSS4G and >>>> offering free licenses to our clients. I am facing this now with Iwi >>>> customers of mine. Not bad mouthing me personally but dismissing the value >>>> and capability of FOSS4G. They often hook these orgs in with free licenses >>>> out of their benevolence (yeah, right) then send a huge maintenance >>>> contract after they are totally trapped in the ESRI environment. >>>> >>>> So yes, I too am cautious about ESRI sponsorship. Because they are hard >>>> nosed corporates and will eat our lunch if they possibly can. Nothing >>>> personal. Just business. >>>> >>>> There are times they do contribute meaningfully. I would like to hear >>>> about those. ESRI is also a company that we cannot ignore in this line of >>>> work. Engagement is important. It is also important to keep a close eye on >>>> them because they WILL eat our lunch if they can. I would like to convince >>>> them that is not in their best interest. Can’t do that if we do not engage. >>>> >>>> Ngā Mihi, >>>> Byron >>>> >>>> On 21 Jan 2025, at 2:06 PM, Alex Leith via Oceania < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Folks >>>> >>>> Hope we've all had a great break and are ready to tackle a new year, >>>> one that already has some weird stuff going on in other countries, but >>>> hopefully we're all safe and well and I wish everyone the best. >>>> >>>> So, coming back around to this topic of the elephant. >>>> >>>> First, I acknowledge that you're raising the issue of sponsorship here, >>>> Andrew, but I wanted to share Kate's keynote, because I just rewatched it, >>>> with an open mind and I cannot find anything in it that is offensive and I >>>> don't think there's even any marketing in there. It's about the work that >>>> we do, and calls out the way we should be talking to each other without >>>> divisiveness, which is a message I wholeheartedly endorse. >>>> >>>> So, here's the recording of Kate's talk, for those of you who weren't >>>> there: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH-8tseMQRQ&list=PLlZzWSPAR5GY4xk_3QvE-nR1vL2AGQYxI >>>> >>>> There's a question explicitly stated and implicit too, which is "why >>>> was Esri there, and do they belong there" and I think it's actually hard to >>>> argue that they don't. Esri Inc (the US organisation) sponsored at least >>>> three past global FOSS4G events, and they have active open source projects >>>> on GitHub https://github.com/esri/. As Martin noted, they've supported >>>> GDAL in a really big way with cash too. Whether we like it or not, I think >>>> they are part of our community, and I'd like to think that as an open >>>> community celebrating open geospatial things, that we should be open to >>>> this truth. >>>> >>>> Now, one more thing from me is that I do acknowledge the bad blood >>>> caused by certain regional distributors and I've heard some really terrible >>>> stories, but I consider the global organisation separate from this (though >>>> perhaps not without some responsibility...). That bad behaviour should be >>>> called out when anyone does it... and I do call things out, and will >>>> continue to do so. >>>> >>>> Anyhow, this email is really to provide a bit more context by sharing >>>> Kate's talk, and I hope it helps to show the way that she really did try to >>>> talk about the bigger picture, and talk about the things we do, and I think >>>> it really did hit the mark in terms of what I'd like keynote talks to aim >>>> for. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart >>>>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able >>>>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains >>>>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the >>>>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that >>>>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board. >>>>> >>>>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been >>>>> bugging me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That >>>>> question is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine >>>>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I >>>>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to >>>>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows >>>>> the >>>>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think >>>>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI >>>>> coming and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was >>>>> amazing (as were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the >>>>> industry people that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that >>>>> line up! But as for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on >>>>> a community that a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them. >>>>> >>>>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and >>>>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it >>>>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it >>>>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing >>>>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community. >>>>> >>>>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole >>>>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this >>>>> is >>>>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what >>>>> people >>>>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee >>>>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would >>>>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened >>>>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + >>>>> verbal >>>>> mention at opening and closing of the event? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Andrew >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Oceania mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Alex Leith* >>>> m: +61 419 189 050 >>>> https://auspatious.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Oceania mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Oceania mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Oceania mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Oceania mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >> > _______________________________________________ > Oceania mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania >
_______________________________________________ Oceania mailing list [email protected] https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
