>From: Joseph Cochran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> >>    More marketable? Yes, it's another hook someone can use to
> >>sell the game. Measurably more sales? I doubt it. In any case of
> >>a popular mainstream IP, it's the IP that drives sales: the game
> >>system is secondary.
>
> >I agree, but if the IP drives sales, all the resolution system
> >can do is eliminate potential sales.  If you use a "non-
> >standard" system it drives away people that would buy it that
> >don't want to learn a new system ...
>
>       Please note that I said MEASURABLY more sales. I think that
>the sales you say a company would lose aren't all that numerous
>when you look at the overall sales that the IP will bring in. It's
>an impossible point to prove either way, and the reason is that
>sales of a mainstream IP are related to how popular that IP is,
>NOT how popular the ruleset is. But my opinion is that the IP is
>the bigger factor, and the rules are a FAR second.

I see your point & agree about the uncertainty as all I have is anecdotal 
evidence and personal preference to draw on.

> >It also seems to make it *much* cheaper for the producer, because
> >they don't have to pay for months worth of game design and
> >playtesting.
>
>       I disagree with this for two reasons:
>
>       1) Great IP's won't necessarily fit into a formula (which is
>in one sense what the D20 rules), particularly if their genre
>doesn't match that of the formula. I mean, look at the Matrix or
>Tom Clancy's novels. Both are great settings for roleplaying, but
>I don't think D20 would be my first choice. Game companies have
>many creative people in them who are capable of tailoring the
>needs of the IP, and if they're going to have to alter D20 or
>OGL, you're already wasting that "saved effort".

Question (esoteric) for you 3E playtesters out there - are there clear cut 
mechanisms for adding additional rules into the 3E system and/or for 
creating dramatically different moods/feeling without trashing the "core" 
system?

>       2) Cheapest for a publisher is to use the system its
>designers know best. They don't want to pay for months of testing
>for their designers to learn someone else's system, either.

What I meant was that it would be much cheaper to adapt an existing (open) 
system (d20 or other) than it would be to create a completely new system out 
of whole cloth ...

[snip]

> >> >2. Is it reasonable to assume that older games based on
> >> >popular books, stories, and movies could get a much wider
> >> >readership and a new lease on life if they are converted to
> >> >d20?
>
> >Maybe so, but with the new "Lord of the Rings" movie currently
> >in production, I'll bet you could get a lot of mileage out of
> >a D20 MERP game about the time the first film is released...
>
>       But once again, it's the IP that would drive those
>sales, NOT the D20 system. A new LotR release will expand the
>awareness of LotR into the mainstream, and THAT would drive
>sales. Nobody'd care about it being D20. MERPers who already have

But it seems like all those millions of D&D players out there who haven't 
played in years would suddenly have the "LotR awareness" and would be much 
more likely to buy a D20 (ie D&D) MERP that they would to buy a 
"non-standard" game based on an unfamiliar system, ie "D20 - that's just 
like D&D - I played that in high school..." (Once again, I AM NOT slamming 
ICE and I have never played MERP)

Or, stated another way, if your thesis is 100% correct, shouldn't ICE's MERP 
have been the best selling game of all time???  LotR was my personal basis 
for WANTING to RPG & I can say this for certain about roughly 80% of the 
people I currently GM for...

> >> >3. Other games, such as Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, etc. might very
> >> >well see some marketing benefit from rewritten to be based on
> >> >a gaming system (d20) that was recognized as the market leader.
[snip]
>       Correct. D20 may be seen as D&D's poor cousin if the marketing
>doesnt' go well. It may be seen as WotC's attempt to take over the
>industry. Heck, it may even be seen as Ryan's pet project with no
>backing within Hasbro. Who knows? If its perception is tarnished
>early on, it could be a deathblow for D20 and/or OGL.

Ahhhhh...  I see your point here and agree exactally.

> >All I have is my own limited experience on this, but ... I GM'ed
> >Shadowrun games for years - probably 20 campaigns in all.  Love
> >the story, love the characters, but ... [I didn't like the rules
> >so I jiggered with them]
>
>       Your experience is what is known as anecdotal evidence, and
>is statistically meaningless. Name me ANY published rule system ...

But not invalid, as anecdotal evidence is used extensively, particularly in 
marketing - in focus groups and play testing.  It really is the only way to 
get into the heads of the consumers and to test assumptions about what the 
statisticts gathered in numerical studies represent.  The prime rule in a 
numerical study is "correlation does not imply causation."  Anecdotal 
evidence (like mine) is unsed to provide some understanding of "why" the 
numbers look the way they do.

My question back to you would be:  Think of all the roleplaying games that 
you used to like, but for one reason or another no longer play (and no 
longer buy).  If *any* of those systems were updated to D20 and re-released 
would you consider buying them?  If the answer is "yes" for any single one 
of those systems, then the D20 "concept" has just created more value for the 
IP in that system.

For me, the Shadowrun IP is a "yes" answer.  Ditto "Boot Hill" and (gasp) 
"Traveller".  (Guess I'm really dating myself here...)

>Your experience lends
>no credibilty to any argument about the strength of the D20
>ruleset, and neither does mine.

I disgree, but only because of the absolutism inherent in your statement.  I 
object to beeing relegated to the category of "completely meaningless" and 
will fight like heck to hold onto the exhalted position of "mostly 
insignificant." *smile*

I do feel that there is *some* value in anecdotal evidence, if only to add 
another perspective to the discussion.

> >Although I love the stories and the roleplaying potential I
> >personally might never play again and I sure won't buy a Shadowrun
> >book again - but if they rewrote it for d20 I most certainly would
> >give it a shot...
>
>       But how many Shadowrun players would feel that FASA had
>sold out to WotC and stop buying products? If there are two of
>them to one of you, FASA shouldn't do it. If there is even ONE of
>them to one of you, it's not worth the extra development cost.

Actually to a certain extent I would feel the same way ...

>       It's not an ego thing. There may BE an ego thing, but
>that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that there is
>inherent value in a ruleset that is wholly owned by a company,
>and that it is more valuable to a company to build upon the
>value of their own designers' work than it is to build on the
>work of someone else. The more GURPS books that there are, the
>more value the GURPS rules have, and the more brand value SJ
>Games has. The more Storyteller books that there are, the more
>value White Wolf has.
>       And here's the rub: the more D20 books there are, the more
>value **WotC** has. Why is another publisher going to build
>WotC's brand over its own?

For one (and only one) reason.  Because the publisher believes (rightly or 
wrongly) that the benefits of a wider audience outweigh the lost value of a 
wholly owned rules system.  I think this is the part that we really can't 
speculate about with any authority.  Time will tell..."

ANOTHER QUESTION:
We all know Ryan's statement that for WotC the profit lies in the core 
rulebooks.  Is this uniformly true for other RPG systems?  It seems to me 
that Shadowrun might be one exception to this, as players often buy the 
supplements to have access to better equipment or spells?  Does anybody have 
any info on this?

Or alternately:  Is this uniformly true because the CORE rulebook is 
something thet EVERY player buys at least once (and sometimes multiple 
times, as new versions come out...)?

Faust

See the OGF FAQ <unofficial> at:
http://www.earth1066.com/D20FAQ.htm
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