Hi,
I wanted to avoid this but I cannot stop myself forever to hear without
reaction.
On 31.08.2012 01:53, [email protected] wrote:
On Aug 30, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Bob Friesenhahn
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, [email protected] wrote:
So let me clarify:
What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow
OpenSolaris, or to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11,
There is nothing wrong with being a follower. For desktop it is
ultimately better to follow Linux rather than Oracle's Solaris,
particularly since Oracle's Solaris is following Linux. An
Illumos-based desktop can be completely successful even if it is
inferior to the desktop offered by some other systems. Being inferior
is not the same as "failure".
A usable desktop allows using Illumos without purchasing multiple
machines, and including on portable hardware.
In the modern era of virtualization, why wouldn't you do this with a
hypervisor? I run illumos on my mac -- in a vm. (You can even do
this for free with VirtualBox, although in my experience VMware
offers
a better experience. VB may have fixed the pathological problem that
made me steer clear of it in the past -- I haven't looked into it
recently.)
This crap I heard for years inside Sun. Rumor say half of laptops used
by Sun employees (and paid by Sun) were Macs in last year. And the most
of core developers were not using Solaris on their laptops. With very
same excuse. Now the question - why should new ideas grow on system in
VM and not in platform you are using daily? Why should others use my
system if even I am using it only to compile code? Do you remember frkit
(for Ferrari crap)? Done volunteerely mostly. Making system at least
usable on laptop. Because authors wanted to use it probably. It was good
for them and fun also.
Second, and probably more significantly, the *vision* is busted. OI
had *no* vision except to follow Oracle's lead. Even Oracle
abandoned OpenSolaris and the desktop, but OI tries to muddle on with
no clear "vision" about what sets it apart. There is no "innovation"
in OI, really. Too many people want too many things from it (server,
desktop, compatibility, SPARC vs. x86), to the point that it can
never really take the necessary steps to excel at any one thing
because doing so might make it worse at another. OI became
jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
I don't think that desktop "innovation" is necessary. What is
necessary is core functionality and availability of the major common
applications (e.g. windowing environment, web browser, email
interface, document editor).
Without a usable desktop on top of Illumos (which current
OpenIndiana provides), the other Illumos variants will suffer from
diminished interest and popularity as mindshare continues to move away
from Solaris.
That battle is *lost*. Even Linux desktop share is a tiny, tiny
fraction of the market. And at this point, even that is irrelevant
--
the "desktop" as such is almost a thing of the past -- people
interact
through mobile devices, etc. Many of us still need real computers on
our desktops, but the OS they run is kind of irrelevant these days --
as long as they have the apps that we need.
blablablablabla. Yes, toys are in clouds. Databases are in clouds,
their GUIs are in browsers. But is Photoshop in browser? Is SolidEdge in
browser on tablet? It is about usability of tools. Productive
specialized tools and inovations are not in tablets/browsers/clouds.
Do you want to move people back to old times when they were waiting for
their timeslot on big systems and have only terminals? Were those times
so inovative as they were in 1980-2005?
There is no battle. You are in fight for customers. I am trying to work
to make Illumos based generic distro good enough for me (and for others,
maybe).
Outside of hardcore users, key enabling apps are missing on illumos.
Skype. GotoMeeting. Legal DVD and Bluray support. iTunes client.
TurboTax (although there is a less functional web variant). Etc.
etc.
(Heck for me, the ability to run a simulator for my R/C aircraft was
a bit of a stopper.)
So, toys. And I have legal DVD support. And with your vision of world,
how important is to have DVD and Bluray films support in PC?
So, given that I have to make these scarifies, what is the *benefit*
of running illumos on a Desktop or Laptop? How does it beat MacOS X
or Linux? Or even Windows? The *sole* benefit was an 'eat your own
dog food' mentality. I agree there is value there, but the amount of
sacrifice I had to make to get there became too costly to justify the
very limited value I was getting out of it.
Developer's desktop. Inovator's desktop. Inovators and developers are
who make platform. How did Windows win its server market? How did Linux
with its server market? Even UNIX systems took control of datacenters
because they were closer to their users.
Can you seriously have recommended OI as a viable desktop to *anyone*
who wasn't running it *solely* for the mostly emotional attachment to
Solaris or illumos? Why would I choose it over Ubuntu, for example?
Or PC-BSD? Or … ?
Because Ubuntu has Unity? Because of stability? Because of dtrace for
developers? Because it is easy to use ZFS (e.g. with Time machine)?
Because of smooth updates?
Many potential users of Illumos will simply turn away if they find
out that they only have a character terminal for console access. If
modern X11 is missing entirely, then only those specifically planning
to do server deployment would even consider using it.
If someone was looking for free desktop, yes, they may be turned off
by lack of a decent modern GUI. If I viewed them as part of my
target
demographic, I suppose I'd be upset by that. But since I'm not
focused on developing a modern desktop OS, I tend not to worry about
them.
Notably, Sun spent gazillions trying to focus on the desktop (in
order to lure developers -- I think mostly from schools in places
like
China). This is why Solaris has WiFi support (which is kind of
crappy, actually), and why they paid me for about a year to redesign
the audio stack. Did it make a damn bit of difference?
You did not see it, I saw. Thanks these investments new people started
to look and use OpenSolaris in 2008/2009. Influential people, those I
was counting as Linux or Windows hardcore. It was tipping point and then
disaster came. Oracle wasted chance to move Solaris forward, wasted all
those investments. And you are thinking in very same way as Oracle here.
Support for desktop was tiny investment in comparison to other teams
working on system core and ubercool features for big systems. Only we
were unable to present it.
This thread started because MongoDB developers do not care about
Illumos. I was porting apps to Solaris from 2005. 2009 was the best year
from point when upstreams were very open to accept patches to make all
kinds of software working well on Solaris.
No (although I
had a lot of fun doing that audio work). In fact I'd venture to say
that the shift of focus from the key audience (big iron customers who
wanted all those nifty features from OpenSolaris -- like Crossbow --
but which didn't exist in a commercially supported product) actually
*cost* Sun pretty much the entire business, and created the
opportunity for Oracle to buy the company at firesale prices.
Really? How many big customers Sun lost in years 2005-2008? There were
different reasons than OpenSolaris Sun went to Oracle. OpenSolaris
project and later the distro (with all its problems like GNU and IPS and
"copy Ubuntu") were one of small chance to move Sun from spiral of
death.
So I stand by my earlier comments: pick something, and *excel* at
it. Make a compelling reason to differentiate yourself.
- Garrett
Best regards,
Milan
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