At the very least, this rundown makes our hotkey choices seem at least as principled as everybody else's. :-)
On Apr 16, 2012, at 2:26 PM, Jonathan Gibbs wrote: > On Esc-to-exit: > This feels very non-standard to me, and I think is legacy from IRIX. :) > > On Full-screen: > There appears to be no standards, really. > > * Linux apps like Firefox and various gnome image viewers do seem to use > "F11". > * Mac apps seem to like "Cmd-F" or since that is usually Find, > "Shift-Cmd-F". I think Esc gets you back out. > * RV uses ` (backtick) to toggle full-screen. > * Framecycler Pro uses "F" or Alt-Enter > * FWIW, our in-house apps use "B" to "blackout" the screen aside from > the image (but not zoom it up to fill the screen) and "Shift-B" for a > fullscreen-blackout. Nonstandard, of course! > > I personally do not like using the "Function" keys for built-in > hot-key as they are hardest to remember. > > --jono > > On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Gritz <[email protected]> wrote: >> Here's the PhotoShop CS4 function key assignments: >> >> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WS71A4FE95-C3E7-45da-9CB7-E1A6130630B1a.html >> >> With the exception of F1 (which lots of apps use for 'help'), they're all >> unique, and none match the proposals for this ticket, either. >> >> Are there any professional graphics apps that make a strong case for >> changing any of our other keys at this point? >> >> >> On Apr 14, 2012, at 4:32 PM, Jeremy Selan wrote: >> >>> I'm not a fan of user preference hotkeys. Makes it hard to jump from >>> desk to desk and use tools without breaking stuff. >>> >>> I'm really ok with being veto'd on this one. Ctrl-Q, Ctrl-W live on! >>> >>> :) >>> >>> -- Jeremy >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Daniel Wexler <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> The standard cross-platform, widely used convention is, as Larry says, >>>> ctrl-q to quit the app, and ctrl-w to close the current document (i.e. >>>> image >>>> in iv), but keep the app open. I would not be in favor of using any other >>>> convention in iv, even with a dialog. >>>> >>>> One option is to add saved, per-user hotkeys, which would allow individuals >>>> or companies to assign different defaults without affecting the standard >>>> behavior. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Larry Gritz <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> itview isn't used at all outside of Sony, right? (If it were, this would >>>>> be a pretty strong argument.) >>>>> >>>>> A couple incarnations of iv ago, I did indeed use ESC to exit, and I >>>>> personally loved that feature and wished that ESC was used to exit across >>>>> a >>>>> wide variety of apps. But it isn't, so eventually I changed it (thus >>>>> adhering to the "principle of least surprise"). >>>>> >>>>> We used those old iv's as live displays for renders (via sockets, as I >>>>> hope we soon do with OIIO's iv as well), so that iv session may have had >>>>> the >>>>> last 10 renders you did, and the current job, which you were carefully >>>>> annotating and comparing against each other. An inadvertent exit was >>>>> pretty >>>>> annoying, because repeating the command line that launched it (actually, >>>>> it >>>>> would have been launched by the renderer) would not have restored the >>>>> session. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose one way around that is for an "exit" event (for whatever key >>>>> it's bound to) to bring up an "are you sure?" or "save?" dialog if there >>>>> are >>>>> unsaved images or live sessions. (Maybe we did this, I don't remember >>>>> now.) >>>>> If this were done, I probably couldn't object strongly if people >>>>> preferred >>>>> ESC to exit (especially people not biased by itview muscle memory). Is >>>>> this >>>>> something that others want as well? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 14, 2012, at 1:50 PM, Jeremy Selan wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I know itview isn't widely used outside of Sony, but it does the esc >>>>>> to exit full screen, and esc to exit the app when not in full screen, >>>>>> and it's awesomely convenient. >>>>>> >>>>>> It would be annoying in larger apps no doubt (nuke, maya, etc), but in >>>>>> a light-weight image viewer I've found it uber convenient. (Which is >>>>>> why I added the ticket). ;) Note that itview didnt used to have this >>>>>> feature, but was only added upon recent artist request, and I've been >>>>>> totally sold. (FYI, Esc to exit is also in addition to the typical >>>>>> exit hotkeys which people may be more used to). >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Jeremy >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Larry Gritz <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> Deepak, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'm very leery of changing UI >>>>>>> without a principled reason. I know there was an open ticket with these >>>>>>> suggestions, but I think we were still discussing whether there is >>>>>>> precedent >>>>>>> for these particular key assignments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Luckily, it's a very short patch, so I won't feel too guilty that you >>>>>>> spent a lot of time on this. But in general, I think it's a wise use of >>>>>>> your (and anyone's) time to do a "design review" by email before >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> implementing a change in UI behavior, public APIs, or other key core >>>>>>> technology. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, so let's just do that here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm against ESC exiting the app on several grounds: (1) it's easy to do >>>>>>> accidentally; (2) we already have a hot key (Ctrl-Q, or Cmd-Q on Mac) >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> does the same thing, and it's a widely accepted standard hotkey for that >>>>>>> action across a large number of apps (and, by the same token, ESC is not >>>>>>> generally used to exit apps); (3) perhaps most importantly, I think it's >>>>>>> very confusing to have "modal" hotkeys, e.g., ESC does something >>>>>>> inconsequential and easy to reverse when full screen, but totally >>>>>>> destructive to the session when not in full screen -- that's terrible >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> cognitive/muscle memory. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As far as function keys for full screen mode and fit to window, I note >>>>>>> at least one potential disadvantage to this plan: those hotkeys are at >>>>>>> least >>>>>>> mnemonically assigned now (to 'F', which can easily be remembered for >>>>>>> "Full >>>>>>> screen" and "Fit window"). And many other apps use Ctrl-F/Cmd-F for >>>>>>> full >>>>>>> screen. On the other hand, many apps use Ctrl-F for "Find", so this >>>>>>> argument is not as strong as the one for Ctrl-Q for "Quit". But any >>>>>>> way you >>>>>>> look at it, there's no easy-to-remember connection between F2 and Full >>>>>>> Screen, or F4 and Fit To Window. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BUT... I will happily entertain a counter-argument to any of these if >>>>>>> you can show either that proposed changes bring us in line with a widely >>>>>>> accepted standard across apps that our users would already be familiar >>>>>>> with, >>>>>>> or that our current hotkeys are conflicting with a standard (for >>>>>>> example, if >>>>>>> we had used Ctrl-W for "Full Screen", that would conflict with the >>>>>>> widespread use of Ctrl-W for "Close Window"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What does "widely used" mean? I'm primarily interested in popular, >>>>>>> cross-platform, image- or graphics-related apps that are likely to be >>>>>>> familiar with our core user base of VFX and Animation professionals. >>>>>>> Some >>>>>>> that naturally come to mind are: Photoshop, Maya, Nuke, Katana. That's >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> a comprehensive list, of course. And of course, we should respect >>>>>>> widespread standard key bindings that are not limited to VFX, such as >>>>>>> Ctrl-Q >>>>>>> Quit, Ctrl-W close Window, Ctrl-X/C/V for cut/copy/paste, Ctrl-S for >>>>>>> save, >>>>>>> etc. But for a function of iv that is not analogous to something done >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> those other apps, or if those other apps do not appear to have a >>>>>>> consensus, >>>>>>> it's probably better not to change things at all unless an argument can >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> made that the change will objectively improve usability or >>>>>>> intuitiveness of >>>>>>> iv. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discuss. Please feel free to list apps that do or do not use those >>>>>>> particular hot key assignments. I can be easily swayed with evidence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- lg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 14, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Deepak Gopinath wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This patch addresses issue #309 and makes the following additions: >>>>>>>> 1. Esc key exits full-screen mode, if it is not in full-screen mode, >>>>>>>> closes iv. >>>>>>>> 2. F11 toggles full-screen mode. (F2 was suggested in the issue. I >>>>>>>> felt F11 was a more 'popular' alternative.) >>>>>>>> 3. F4 toggles fit to window. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can merge this Pull Request by running: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> git pull https://github.com/deepakg92/oiio master >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or you can view, comment on it, or merge it online at: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/pull/319 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Commit Summary -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * In the About message box, the OpenImageIO URL has been hyperlinked >>>>>>>> to the homepage ie., http://openimageio.org >>>>>>>> * Merge remote branch 'upstream/master' >>>>>>>> * Merge remote branch 'upstream/master' >>>>>>>> * 1. Esc exits full-screen mode, and if not in full-screen mode, >>>>>>>> closes the application. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- File Changes -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> M src/iv/imageviewer.cpp (8) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Patch Links -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/pull/319.patch >>>>>>>> https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/pull/319.diff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: >>>>>>>> https://github.com/OpenImageIO/oiio/pull/319 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Larry Gritz >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Larry Gritz >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Oiio-dev mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org >> >> -- >> Larry Gritz >> [email protected] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Oiio-dev mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org > _______________________________________________ > Oiio-dev mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org -- Larry Gritz [email protected] _______________________________________________ Oiio-dev mailing list [email protected] http://lists.openimageio.org/listinfo.cgi/oiio-dev-openimageio.org
