[Winona Online Democracy] Hello Judge Peterson, (I begin with that greeting as a sign of respect, your knowledge of the Constitution and U.S. history is very impressive. I'm way out of my league.) :-> About state's sovereignity issues: You are accurate, no disputing that. Some more feedback and questions though: 1. Source of Personal Freedoms: From a bird eye's view, isn't a state a political body that is made up of laws, rules, traditions, and other social compacts? It isn't the only or supreme political body, is it? Isn't a state just one vehicle of many to pursue personal freedoms, rights, and responsibilities? Aren't personal rights grounded in the Constitution and especially the first ten amendments to it, "The Bill of Rights"? I think the focus should always be kept on personal freedoms and not on some legal and paper construct called a state. 2. State's Rights: Take away the racism and other terrible justifications for the Civil War and I think some very legitmate democratic concerns still remain, expecially that of "state's rights". I fear too many state's rights were lost after the war. I understand why it happened but I still don't think it was right. Since then, we seemed to have moved more and more toward the trappings of an Empire, especially after Teddy Roosevelt's administration. I do NOT want the states to be a mere subdivision of the federal government. Thank you for pointing that important issue out. I want us to move back toward a more federal system, a system that shares power equally between the states and the central government. 3. 10th Amendment: Doesn't the 10th Amendment also grant the powers not given to the federal govt. to the PEOPLE as well as the states? I hear John Lennon singing in the background..."power to the people". Is it only a dreamers belief that ulitmate power lies with the people? (Whatever the phrase, "the people" means.) Doesn't the Constitution place higher value on individual freedoms vs. the rights granted to states and the agreements that bind those states together? You know much more than I do about law. Please correct me where I am wrong, my recollection of these topics is dusty at best at times. You mentioned these were very interesting discussions. I agree! :-> It is like sitting around a good camp fire, minus the smores and laughter. :-< Dwayne ============= > >Dwayne, I take issue with your point #2 in this message. A State is a >sovereign state that has granted the Federal Government some of its powers >in order to form the United States. Within a State each citizen is equal. >The Federal Government was not granted the power to tell the states how to >conduct their sovereign powers. A sea change on that issue was done after >the Civil War when we passed the 12th, 13th, and 14th amendments. In order >to project your philosophy that the States are merely convenient >subdivisions of the Federal Government, we would have to make another sea >change in our constitution not unlike the 3 amendments passed after the >civil war. > >By the way, this is a very interesting discussion. >Duane M. Peterson >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:22 PM >Subject: [Winona] Small States Issue > > >> [Winona Online Democracy] >> >> Hello Glen, >> >> Wow! >> >> What great information and great points about the combined populations in >> the biggest 15 and smallest 35 states. >> >> That concern is one of the biggest obstacles to overturning the Electoral >> College. >> >> Here are some quick responses: >> >> 1. The candidates already ignore many states because of the Electoral >> College. Gore and Bush spent most of their time in the states where the >> Electoral College vote was going to be close. (Only Ralph Nader visited >> all 50 states in his campaign.) >> >> 2. To be real blunt, afterall, what is a state? The most important >> political body is a person. The largest states have more sway because >they >> have more people in them. We shouldn't count cows, corn fields, or sage >> brush. The geographical and city/rural splits could be worked about my >> other methods. >> >> 3. There are better ways to focus attention on all the areas of the >country. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Dwayne >> >> ================= >> >> >From: "Glen & Diane Schumann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >To: "Winona Online Democracy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >Subject: RE: [Winona] Electoral College >> >Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:50:19 -0600 >> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >> >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> >Importance: Normal >> >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 >> >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >Precedence: bulk >> > >> >The top fifteen states by population (California, Texas, New York, >Florida, >> >Pennsylvania, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, New Jersey, Georgia, North >> >Carolina, Virginia, Massachusetts, Indiana, Washington) have a >population >> >of 180,199,000. The bottom 35 states plus the District of Columbia have >only >> >94,436,000. These numbers are from a population estimate document I found >on >> >the US Census Bureau website. >> > >> >Assuming for the moment that these populations are proportional to the >> >number of persons eligible to vote, if you won 51% of the vote in the 15 >> >most populous states you would have 91,901,490 votes. Your opponent >would >> >have to carry about 97.5% of the vote in the small states to beat you. >> > >> >What candidate would spend any money or campaign anywhere outside of the >15 >> >or so most populous states under those conditions? >> > >> >Popular election of the president is a sure way to concentrate power in >the >> >most populous states. States ranking less than in the top 20 by >population >> >would effectively be disenfranchised. >> > >> >Minnesota is currently number 20, projected to slip to 21 by 2005. >> > >> >Glen Schumann >> >Winona, MN >> > >> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >> >H: 507.454.3056 W: 507.453.3567 W FAX: 507.454.1440 >> > >> >Visit my Family Home Page: <http://www.hbci.com/~gschuman/home.htm> >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Duane Peterson >> >Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:29 PM >> >To: Ed Thompson >> >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >Subject: Re: [Winona] Electoral College >> > >> > >> >[Winona Online Democracy] >> > >> >I listened today to MPR and several experts talking about the difficulty >in >> >amending the constitution to change the electoral college. The small >states >> >get at least 3 electors even though their population would not justify >that >> >many. Those states usually oppose the change. They usually can kill the >> >amendment in the US Senate. At any rate it will be interesting to see >how >> >it develops this year. Look to see which senators oppose amending the >> >constitution. >> >Duane M. Peterson >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Ed Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:26 PM >> >Subject: [Winona] Electoral College >> > >> > >> >> [Winona Online Democracy] >> >> >> >> Just to get another interesting discussion going: I just heard on the >> >radio >> >> that Senator Arlen Specter (R, PA) will be proposing a constitutional >> >> amendment to eliminate the electoral college and have voters directly >> >elect >> >> the president. There is, of course, precedence for this: The >seventeenth >> >> amendment, passed in 1913, changed the election of senators from state >> >> legislatures to popular vote. So, what do you think? Good idea? Bad >> >idea? >> >> Why? >> >> >> >> Ed Thompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A timely witty saying for this week, from Dan Quayle: >> >> "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the >polls." >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------- >> >> This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. >> >> Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or >> >unsubscribe. >> >> Please sign all messages posted to this list with your actual name. >> >> Posting of commercial solicitations is not allowed on this list. >> >> Report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> > >> >---------------- >> >This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. >> >Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or >unsubscribe. >> >Please sign all messages posted to this list with your actual name. >> >Posting of commercial solicitations is not allowed on this list. >> >Report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > >> >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:Glen Schumann.vcf 2 (TEXT/ttxt) >(0001F2B8) >> > >> >> >> ---------------- >> This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. >> Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or >unsubscribe. >> Please sign all messages posted to this list with your actual name. >> Posting of commercial solicitations is not allowed on this list. >> Report problems to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > ---------------- This message was posted to the Winona Online Democracy Project. 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