[Winona Online Democracy]
I wish to thank Dwayne for publicly stating that he respects my opinion. So little respect is shown for those that have different views from the vocal norm in this forum. When I joined this forum it had first come to life. Many different people would write in about local and state issues. Even though you might not have agreed with their opinion, most people understood that people were different and have different opinions and could respect that. Different opinions is what made this forum neat. Could the lack of respect be why there are so few "writers" and so many "readers" of this forum? Do you remember when the mayor and other city department heads would write in? Do you remember when so many "average Joes" like myself would write in? I personally know people that have stopped writing in because of written abuse they have taken from a few because their view or opinion was different from the 10-15 very vocal members of this forum. I'm done with my rant, kind of. I would like to respectfully disagree with Dwayne's assumption that I only get my news from TV. Do you monitor what I read? Do you get my mail? I do consider myself to be educated and read. I have several news groups bookmarked on my computer and get different weekly magazines. Do you think my different views and opinions could be due to different life experiences? Were my parents different from yours? Is your profession different than mine? Is your education different from mine? No need to answer because the answer is yes. Could that be why I have different views and opinions? Once again, yes. If every member of this forum held the same opinion and view on different subjects, wouldn't this be a boring place to be? It is because others have different opinions that make this forum what it is. But, if the lack of respect for different opinions continues, along with the personal attacks, this forum will have many more "readers" than it does now. Every time I click the send button I've already convinced myself to "hold onto my pants" because my views and opinions vary from others. I know that I will be taunted into a bigger debate and lectured as to why I'm wrong and they are right. I often find myself biting my tongue (in this case, fingers). I then find myself clicking the "delete" button and moving on. This forum is suppose to be fun and educational. Not stressful. If only others would do the same. I know that I have violated one of my simple rules. The K.I.S.S. rule of writing, so I will wrap it up. Here are a few of my favorite quotes: "if you have nothing nice to say about somebody, say nothing at all" author, my mom "it is easy to criticize your fellow man.............while sitting behind your computer" author, Chris Nelson I promise to be more tolerant of others and their views and opinions. Will YOU? Chris Nelson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Voegeli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: [Winona] Fw: Learn from History!! > > [Winona Online Democracy] > > I'm glad someone brought up Oliver North. He's the perfect person to > mention when talking about fears of attacks from within on our freedoms, > civil liberties, and democratic government. > > In my opinion, he should be the poster boy for a military dictatorship > campaign. He is the very reason we must be so vigilant about our civil > liberties and democracy. > > Most governments in history that have ever achieved some level of democracy > have had their democracies eroded or overthrown by a number of forces that > are opposed to democracy. It's a common misperception that once a people > achieves some semblance of a democracy that they are set. That once > democracy is achieved, we can't go back. History shows that democracy is > almost always overthrown, not only from enemies without but also from > forces within. > > One of the most common forces are private armies that view themselves as > somehow above or beyond the law of the common masses. These private armies > first operate at the behest of super-wealthy elites then they morph into > that group themselves. > > The Praetorian Guard in Rome is one of the more famous examples. First > this "elite force" was created to protect the Emperor (security fears). > Then it carried out the secret plans of the Emperor and the Patricians > (read CIA, NSA, etc.). Then one day it would overthrow or kill Emperors > and then pick the next Emperor themselves. > > In America, we are not quite there yet but look down the road we are headed. > > :-< > > In my opinion, Oliver North should still be in prison. (For the record, I > also think Bill Clinton should have been impeached for lying under oath.) > Instead he was pardoned of his convictions by Bush Sr. (big surprise!) and > then even has the gall to run for the U.S. Senate and now he is a t.v. > commentator. That says a lot about our democracy, media, and common > people's beliefs about war and law. > > I respect Chris Nelson and his views. I'm not surprised he feels that way > when you consider what most American are fed by the so called news. > > I have a deep respect for democracy and the Marine Corps. That is why what > Oliver North did was so dishonorable and illegal. > > To review, he was a member of President Reagan's private army. He sold > weapons to the "enemies" in Iran. He then turned around and used that cash > to fund the (terrorist) Contras in Nicaragua. The super elite and > President wanted this done because the democratically elected Congress had > decided to cut off funding to the Contras. > > Incidently, the World Court and U.N. had also issued statements opposed to > the U.S. support of the Contras. This is part of the reason our current > political leaders won't support international law or courts because then > the U.S. govt. may not be able to support/fund/arm it's own terrorists. > > Incidently, it's no suprise that in a little reported news story it was > revealed that President Bush has just recently issued an Executive Order to > block the release of papers from the era of President Reagan's term. What > would be found if we could learn more about the real events in the Reagan > White House of George Bush Sr., Dick Cheney, et al? Law allows these > private presidential papers to be released after a set number of years. So > much for the law. > > Finally, to come back to the original urban myth about Oliver North > testifying and mentioning Osama bin Laden's name. > > Did the original urban myth start because someone honestly confused Osama > bin Laden's name with the person he actually mentioned, Abu Nidal? After > all, don't "they" all sound and look alike? > > It would not have been surprising if Oliver North had mentioned bin Laden's > name. After all, the largest and most expensive CIA campaign (that we know > about) was the semi-secret operation in Pakistan and Afghanistan to fund, > arm, and support the likes of Osama bin Laden. > > That sure is some kind of moral, democratic, and successful foreign policy > "we" have. > > :-< > > Dwayne Voegeli > > ======================= > > >Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:12:38 -0600 > >From: "Mary Jean Kinzie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "On-Line Democracy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: [Winona] Fw: Learn from History!! > >Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:14:06 -0800 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >X-Priority: 3 > >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 > >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Precedence: bulk > >Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Resent-Cc: recipient list not shown: ; > > > >An e-mail from a friend that I thought worth sharing: > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Kay Stone > >To: Edgar & Dorla Johns > >Cc: Iris Guynn ; Creta Stickney ; Connie Herrick ; Jean Kinzie ; Marylois > >Skochdopole > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 6:01 PM > >Subject: Learn from History!! > > > > > >> > >> > >> > Subject: FW: LEARN FROM HISTORY!! > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> You know, it's funny. I remember very vividly the Oliver > >> > North hearings, > >> > >> but did not recall the name of Osama bin Laden as the > >> > terrorist that > >> > >> North was threatened by. Has this slimeball been around > >> > that long?. > >> > >> > >> > >> It's pretty evident, in hindsight that we should have > >> > listened to OLLIE! > >> > >> > >> > >> I was at a UNC lecture the other day where they played a > >> > video of Oliver > >> > >> North during the Iran-Contra deals during the Reagan > >> > administration. I > >> > >> was only 14 back then but was surprised by this > >> > particular clip. There > >> > >was > >> > >> Ollie in front of God and Country getting the third > >> > degree. But what he > >> > >> said stunned me. He was being drilled by some senator I > >> > didn't recognize > >> > >> who asked him; > >> > >> 'Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home > >> > security > >> > system?' > >> > >> > >> > >> Oliver replied, 'Yes I did sir.' > >> > >> > >> > >> The senator continued, trying to get a laugh out of the > >> > audience, 'Isn't > >> > >> this just a little excessive?' > >> > >> 'No sir,' continued Oliver. > >> > >> > >> > >> 'No. And why not?' > >> > >> > >> > >> 'Because the life of my family and I were threatened.' > >> > >> > >> > >> 'Threatened? By who.' > >> > >> 'By a terrorist, sir.' > >> > >> 'Terrorist? What terrorist could possibly scare you that > >> > much?' > >> > >> 'His name is Osama bin Laden.' > >> > >> > >> > >> At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but > >> > couldn't > >> > >pronounce > >> > >> it, which most people back then probably couldn't. A > >> > couple of people > >> > >> laughed at the attempt. Then the senator continued. > >> > 'Why are you so > >> > >> afraid of this man?' > >> > >> 'Because sir, he is the most evil person alive that I > >> > know of.' > >> > >> > >> > >> 'And what do you recommend we do about him?' > >> > >> > >> > >> 'If it were me I would recommend an assassin team be > >> > formed to eliminate > >> > >> him and his men from the face of the earth.' > >> > >> > >> > >> The senator disagreed with this approach and that was > >> > all they showed of > >> > >> the clip. > >> > >> > >> > >> It's scary when you think 15 years ago the government > >> > was aware of > >> > >> Osama > >> > >> bin Laden and his potential threat to the security of > >> > the world. I > >> > guess > >> > >> like all great tyrants they start small but if left > >> > untended spread like > >> > >> the virus they truly are. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> > ><HTML><HEAD> > ><META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> > ><META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1801" name=GENERATOR> > ><STYLE></STYLE> > ></HEAD> > ><BODY bgColor=#ffffff> > ><DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff00ff size=2>An e-mail from a friend that I > >thought worth sharing:</FONT></DIV> > ><DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ff00ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> > ><DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- > ><DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Kay Stone</A> </DIV> > ><DIV><B>To:</B> <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Edgar > >& Dorla Johns</A> </DIV> > ><DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Iris > >Guynn</A> ; <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Creta > >Stickney</A> ; <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Connie > >Herrick</A> ; <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Jean > >Kinzie</A> ; <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>Marylois Skochdopole</A> </DIV> > ><DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 16, 2001 6:01 PM</DIV> > ><DIV><B>Subject:</B> Learn from History!!</DIV></DIV> > ><DIV><BR></DIV> > ><DIV><FONT color=#800080>><BR>><BR>> > Subject: > >FW: LEARN FROM HISTORY!!<BR>> ><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> You know, > >it's funny. I remember very vividly the Oliver<BR>> > North > >hearings,<BR>> > > >>> but did not recall the name of Osama bin Laden as the<BR>> > >> terrorist that<BR>> > >> > >>> North was threatened by. Has this slimeball been around<BR>> > >> that long?.<BR>> > > >>><BR>> > > >>> It's pretty evident, in hindsight that we should have<BR>> > >> listened to OLLIE!<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> I was at a > >UNC lecture the other day where they played a<BR>> > video of > >Oliver<BR>> > > >>> North during the Iran-Contra deals during the > >Reagan<BR>> > > >administration. I<BR>> > > >>> was only 14 back then but was surprised by this<BR>> > > >particular clip. There<BR>> > > >>was<BR>> > > >>> Ollie in front of God and Country getting the third<BR>> > >> > >degree. But what he<BR>> > >> >> said > >stunned > >me. He was being drilled by some senator I<BR>> > didn't > >recognize<BR>> > >> >> who asked > >him;<BR>> > > >>> > >'Did you not recently spend close to $60,000 for a home<BR>> > > >security<BR>> > system?'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> Oliver > >replied, 'Yes I did sir.'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> The > >senator > >continued, trying to get a laugh out of the<BR>> > audience, > >'Isn't<BR>> > > >>> this just a little excessive?'<BR>> > >> >> 'No sir,' > >continued Oliver.<BR>> > > >>><BR>> > > >>> 'No. And why not?'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> > >'Because the > >life of my family and I were threatened.'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> > >'Threatened? > >By who.'<BR>> > > >>> 'By a terrorist, sir.'<BR>> > >> >> > >'Terrorist? > >What terrorist could possibly scare you that<BR>> > much?'<BR>> > >> >> 'His > >name is > >Osama bin Laden.'<BR>> > > >>><BR>> > > >>> At this point the senator tried to repeat the name, but<BR>> > >> couldn't<BR>> > >pronounce<BR>> > >> >> it, which > >most people back then probably couldn't. A<BR>> > couple of > >people<BR>> > >> >> laughed at > >the attempt. Then the senator continued.<BR>> > 'Why are you so<BR>> > >> >> afraid of > >this man?'<BR>> > > >>> 'Because sir, he is the most evil person alive that I<BR>> > >> know of.'<BR>> > > >>><BR>> > > >>> 'And what do you recommend we do about him?'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> 'If it > >were > >me I would recommend an assassin team be<BR>> > formed to > >eliminate<BR>> > > >>> him and his men from the face of the earth.'<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >> The > >senator > >disagreed with this approach and that was<BR>> > all they showed > >of<BR>> > >> > >the clip.<BR>> > > >>><BR>> > > >>> It's scary when you think 15 years ago the > >government<BR>> > was aware of<BR>> > >> >> > >Osama<BR>> > > >>> bin Laden and his potential threat to the security of<BR>> > >> the world. I<BR>> > guess<BR>> > >> >> like all > >great tyrants they start small but if left<BR>> > untended spread > >like<BR>> > > >>> > >the virus they truly are.<BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> >><BR>> > >> ><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> > > > > > > ********************************************************** > > Dwayne and Denine Voegeli > > Dwayne: Social Studies Teacher > Winona Senior High School > 901 W. Gilmore Ave. > Winona, MN 55987 USA > > Denine: Middle and High School Science Teacher in Plainview, MN > > Home Voice Mail: (507) 453-9012 > School telephone number: (507) 454-9509 > > E-mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Personal Web Page: http://www.jarviscomputer.com/voegeli > > High School Web Site: http://wshs.luminet.net/ > > A Web Site About the City of Winona: http://winonanet.com/home.html > > > > "Education is not preparation for life, education is life itself." > > -- John Dewey > > *********************************************************** > > > --------------- > This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy > Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or unsubscribe > All messages sent to the list must be signed with your actual name. > Posting of commercial soliticitations is not allowed on this list. > Report problems or questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --------------- This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy Please visit http://onlinedemocracy.winona.org to subscribe or unsubscribe All messages sent to the list must be signed with your actual name. 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