Rob,
I think that you've missed my point. The guy didn't THREATEN to leave.
He HAS left. I doubt we will get him back. My strong reaction was
because of that entirely avoidable loss of 5+ man-years of project
expertise that we will be pressed to recover for the sake on an
ill-considered shout-down. Was this really wise?
Yes, I have only been on the DL for two days, but I have been a major
contributor to community side of the OOo project for five years. And in
my 30+ years in this business, I've seen lots of f***ed up project
take-overs in my business unit. I was trying to flag up that this old
dog is starting to sniff another one, and I would REALLY like to prevent
this happening.
You seem to be positioning yourself as the project leader and absolute
arbiter of Apache policy, and YOU have caused a valuable asset to this
project to walk, yet you seem to be totally unaware of this -- or are
and don't care. If we keep this up then this Apache project will drive
away many if not most of the ex-OOo team who want to contribute. You'll
be left with an extremely tidy and well-managed DL but no OpenOffice
product.
If this is the Apache way, then this will be a sad outcome. But is this
the Apache way or just your individual interpretation? I do wonder what
is the biggest project that you've run personally, or have you even done
this before?
Regards Terry
On 02/08/11 14:40, Rob Weir wrote:
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 9:00 AM, TerryE<[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
Regardless... it doesn't matter to me anymore. I'm stepping out of
this discussion now, and stepping away from anything to do with OOo
documentation, including the OOo Wiki.
Clayton
This was the outcome of an ill considered discussion. Clayton, is the one
guy who really understands how the documentation is put together. He's been
working full time on this for at least 5 years that I know of. He was
kicked in the teeth by Oracle, albeit for ration if perhaps impersonal
commercial drivers, and now has to consider his future options. Despite
this and somewhat to my surprise he was willing to re-engage and support OOo
in the future within Apache. His departure would truly be a loss to the
project and one that I think we all should regret.
In my naiveté I did get the impression that the project would be a flat
consensual collaborative organisation rather than a hierarchical dictat,
albeit with the Apache umbrella. OK, I fully accept that I don't
understand the "Apache way" yet, but in my days in EDS I had technical
oversight in taking over many account teams and ensuring continuity of
service (most far larger than this project) as well as running large teams
myself. I have no interest in shovelling this shit in future but I do know
how to get the team to vanish like sand through your fingers. One sure way
is not to listen to considered and rational experience, to ride roughshod
over peoples input, and to use sarcasm as a tool in sensitive dialogue.
These people are volunteers contributing pro-bono, not servants. If this
is going to be the culture of this project, then it is going to wither and
die.
By your strong reaction, Terry, after only being on the list for 2
days, I suspect that you are not yet accustomed to the way we are
debating. No one is shutting anything down. We're discussing. When
there is consensus then we move forward.
Decision making at Apache is described here:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management
It is a good read. In particular I see nothing about trying to force
decisions by threatening to leave the project. But maybe I missed
that line ;-)
And remember experience at OOo is not the sole fons et origo of
wisdom. There are other sources of relevant knowledge and experience.
We should try to respect all views raised on this list, and not try
to close down arguments by saying, "That's the way we always did it at
OOo" or "I'm more experienced in doing things my way, therefore
everyone else should yield". Those are not ways to reach consensus.
Similarly, there are parts of Apache that are non-negotiable and areas
where we have some discretion in the project. The Apache 2.0 license
is an example of something that is non-negotiable.
-Rob
