On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: > On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >>>>>> FWIW, >>>>>> >>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles >>>>> >>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy. >>>>> >>>>> My question/concern at this point would be -- >>>>> >>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice? >>>> >>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members on >> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all. >> I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes as >> a matter of policy. >>>> >>>> What do others think? >>>> >>> >>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different >>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome. >>> >>> But it will depend on the individual. Consider three types of >> contributors: >>> >>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache >>> >>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from >>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another >>> project >>> >>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache >>> >>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the >>> necessary skills these roles. In the first category, the experienced >>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly, >>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way. But in the other >>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case), >>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer >>> period of time, >>> >>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles. >> >> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in >> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case. >> > > Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with > the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss > participation in some arenas.
We certainly will. > > I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current > PPMC member (or two) has their fingers in several areas. It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage contributors. The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look likely. Committers can send suggestions to ooo-private along with the areas of contribution and interested PMC members can look for sustained effort. > > A discussion for another time perhaps. Yes. Regards, Dave > >> >> Consider >> (a) Committers on another project. >> (b) PMC members on another project. >> >> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another >> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior >> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea for >> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the >> "Initial Committer" list. >> >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >> >>> ... >>> If there were a way to make people members of the >>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that >>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically >>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not >>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to >>> committers by default. >> >> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric >> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that >> differ from project to project. >> > > definitely +1 on this. > > Committers first... > > >> >> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to >> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications. >> >> Regards, >> Dave >> >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pedro. >>>>>> >>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<[email protected]> ha scritto: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of >>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC >>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all >>>>>>> contributors get >>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC >>>>>>> member is here >>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for >>>>>>> committer and >>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time. >>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A comment from Rob: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project, >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc, >>>>>>> support.� This >>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better >>>>>>> job giving >>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If >>>>>>> the feeling is >>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a >>>>>>> PPMC member, >>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we >>>>>>> trust their judgement >>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The >>>>>>> move from >>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be >>>>>>> reviewed) >>>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they >>>>>>> are doing quality >>>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our >>>>>>> commits.� So we >>>>>>> need to trust their judgement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they >>>>>>> understand The >>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On >>>>>>> average are >>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are >>>>>>> causing?� Are they >>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we >>>>>>> graduate, and our >>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively >>>>>>> needs to >>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC >>>>>>> is more about >>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical >>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3 >>>>>>> at the same >>>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated >>>>>>> previously.� I think there was >>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC >>>>>>> suitably large >>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously >>>>>>> started with a PPMC >>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand >>>>>>> Apache.� That is the >>>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach >>>>>>> is necessarily >>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we >>>>>>> approach >>>>>>> graduation. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> MzK >>>>> >>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll >>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul >>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can >>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." >>>>> -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp >> >> > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > MzK > > "So let it rock, let it roll > Let the bible belt come and save my soul > Hold on to sixteen as long as you can > Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." > -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
