On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:08 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote: > I just realized that there is a principle around the election of committers > that may have been lost sight of. >
Where can I find the principle in detail? > Here is something to consider: > > The classical case for someone becoming a committer is that they can > more-easily do something they are already doing. The usual example: instead > of submitting patches that have to be reviewed and committed by someone else, > a committer is empowered to apply patches directly to the SVN. > Becoming a committer also means more responsibility and more self-government. Just to developer, if you already get committer rights, I urge you to get your work reviewed by someone else if possible before getting it into SVN. > The Apache OpenOffice project also has need for committers in conjunction > with governance responsibilities (such as oversight of the Community Forums) > or infrastructure work (e.g., administering the MediaWiki server) and being > on the PMC for supporting confidential matters (including ooo-security) and > having accountability for oversight. > > In looking at someone whose contributions are clear, the next question is, I > think, where do they fit in the above picture? If being a committer (or a > PPMC member) is inessential to the work being done, it seems inappropriate to > confer committer privileges. I think neither PPMC (next: PMC) membership nor > committer status should be viewed as ceremonial achievements. > > - Dennis > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Yong Lin Ma > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 22:50 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members > > A specific question. What is the criteria for a QE member to become a > committer? > > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >>>>>>>> FWIW, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My question/concern at this point would be -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice? >>>>>> >>>>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members on >>>> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all. >>>> I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes as >>>> a matter of policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> What do others think? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different >>>>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome. >>>>> >>>>> But it will depend on the individual. Consider three types of >>>> contributors: >>>>> >>>>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache >>>>> >>>>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from >>>>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another >>>>> project >>>>> >>>>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache >>>>> >>>>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the >>>>> necessary skills these roles. In the first category, the experienced >>>>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly, >>>>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way. But in the other >>>>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case), >>>>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer >>>>> period of time, >>>>> >>>>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles. >>>> >>>> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in >>>> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case. >>>> >>> >>> Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with >>> the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss >>> participation in some arenas. >> >> We certainly will. >> >>> >>> I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current >>> PPMC member (or two) has their fingers in several areas. >> >> It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage >> contributors. The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look >> likely. Committers can send suggestions to ooo-private along with the areas >> of contribution and interested PMC members can look for sustained effort. >> >>> >>> A discussion for another time perhaps. >> >> Yes. >> >> Regards, >> Dave >> >>> >>>> >>>> Consider >>>> (a) Committers on another project. >>>> (b) PMC members on another project. >>>> >>>> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another >>>> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior >>>> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea for >>>> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the >>>> "Initial Committer" list. >>>> >>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> If there were a way to make people members of the >>>>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that >>>>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically >>>>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not >>>>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to >>>>> committers by default. >>>> >>>> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric >>>> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that >>>> differ from project to project. >>>> >>> >>> definitely +1 on this. >>> >>> Committers first... >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to >>>> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pedro. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<[email protected]> ha scritto: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of >>>>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC >>>>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all >>>>>>>>> contributors get >>>>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC >>>>>>>>> member is here >>>>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for >>>>>>>>> committer and >>>>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time. >>>>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A comment from Rob: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project, >>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc, >>>>>>>>> support.� This >>>>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better >>>>>>>>> job giving >>>>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If >>>>>>>>> the feeling is >>>>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a >>>>>>>>> PPMC member, >>>>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we >>>>>>>>> trust their judgement >>>>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The >>>>>>>>> move from >>>>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be >>>>>>>>> reviewed) >>>>>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they >>>>>>>>> are doing quality >>>>>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our >>>>>>>>> commits.� So we >>>>>>>>> need to trust their judgement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they >>>>>>>>> understand The >>>>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On >>>>>>>>> average are >>>>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are >>>>>>>>> causing?� Are they >>>>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we >>>>>>>>> graduate, and our >>>>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively >>>>>>>>> needs to >>>>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC >>>>>>>>> is more about >>>>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical >>>>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3 >>>>>>>>> at the same >>>>>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated >>>>>>>>> previously.� I think there was >>>>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC >>>>>>>>> suitably large >>>>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously >>>>>>>>> started with a PPMC >>>>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand >>>>>>>>> Apache.� That is the >>>>>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach >>>>>>>>> is necessarily >>>>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we >>>>>>>>> approach >>>>>>>>> graduation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> MzK >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll >>>>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul >>>>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can >>>>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." >>>>>>> -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> MzK >>> >>> "So let it rock, let it roll >>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul >>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can >>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men." >>> -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp >> >
