I'm trying hard not to be an advocate of anything; rather, I'm in exploration mode.
Tell you what: I'd like to see (have not yet found) some solid examples of AtomSpace - full-on knowledge graph implementations, whatever. Something to be able to follow through one or two complete examples which are more than toy exercises. On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 11:04 AM Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> wrote: > About opencrux... below, > > On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 10:24 AM Jack Park <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> That's a useful observation. I wonder if it has anything to do with the >> fact that they give appearances more of offering a platform aimed at >> solving real-world problems as compared to a platform for language modeling >> research? >> >> Their landing page reads rather differently from that of the AtomSpace >> landing page. They make results-oriented promises; I don't see that on the >> AtomSpace landing page. >> >> Their landing page appears to be the work of skilled marketing types; the >> AtomSpace landing page appears to be the work of, well, not skilled >> marketing types. Their top nav bar says Products, Solutions, Use Cases, >> Community, ...; AtomSpace is a MediaWiki, one very familiar to developers, >> but not to business oriented people. >> >> What if AtomSpace ignored all the cool buzz words and opened with >> problems it can solve, ways people can start using it right out of the box >> without building it, tuning it, etc? >> >> Would you, as a scientist, be able to live with wall-street-oriented >> thinkers taking over your pet projects and packaging them up for far >> less-skilled consumers? >> >> I think this is an issue faced by a lot of us. >> > > Quite right. We've never had anyone interested in marketing participate > in the project. Marketing is a skill, and unlike open source, there is no > "open marketing", so you have to pay these people actual $$$ to get slick > content. > >> >> I studied Grakn carefully; the front story is one, for me, of some >> attraction to the apparent simplicity of the system; the back story, for >> me, is that Grakn appears optimized in ways which get in the way of >> allowing me to push it in ways I believe it should be pushed; a problem of >> ontological commitments I cannot undo, so I just walk away. >> >> For a really interesting case for comparison, take a look at >> https://opencrux.com/ >> > > Well, care to be specific? I suppose it's possible to put a prolog/datalog > API on top of the atomspace. I'm sufficiently removed from that world that > I would not want to even begin without a lot of arm-twisting, but I can > consult. > > I'm not sure what to say about other things. Bitemporality? We have a > concept of a space-time server, optimized for dealing with time .. and > space coordinates. It's neglected... > > Document-graph? Sure, cause why not? Seems easy to me... > > Back-ends other than postgres? That's interesting. It's not "hard" - its > not conceptually hard, and also the infrastructure/API is already in place. > But it does require some fair amount of slogging. One would have to be > enthusiastic about it. > > Datalog queries? I'm certain that anything you can say in datalog, you can > say in Atomese, and so its a matter of writing a converter/translator that > accepts datalog as input and spews atomese as output. How hard is this? No > clue. You've actually messed with this kind of stuff, you'd know better. > Again -- everything that is a "symbol" in prolog is an atom in atomese. > The atomspace is pretty much nothing more than a glorified symbol table. > > ... and this seems to be the key insight that the opencrux developers have > made: symbol tables are (ad-hoc, in-RAM, poorly-designed) databases. Rip > out the ad-hoc symbol table of programming language XYZ, replace it with a > real, actual database, and wow ... off we go on a wild ride. I'm trying to > think of what programming languages XYZ this could be the most interesting > for... where you'd get the most bang-for-the-buck. Maybe prolog -- maybe > that is the lesson from opencux ? > > Care to suggest an easily-hackable version of prolog/datalog on which this > experiment could be done? Just for the heck of it? > > I mean, you could do this trick for python or javascript ... I don't think > the python community would accept it, it would be too crazy and weird for > them. The javascript folks might .. but they already have some pretty > decent infrastructure already, so they don't need something this low-level. > They've done this integration at a higher level, already. (programming in > javascipt is far more mind-expanding than python. Python shuts down your > world-view, narrows your thinking. Blinds you to possibilities. javascript > does the opposite.) > > --linas > >> >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 7:48 PM Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> <snip> >>> I dislike promoting competitors, but the grakn.ai system has taken some >>> baby-steps in this general direction. I'm envious that they are far more >>> popular/funded/suported/used than the atomspace. >>> >>> --linas >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "link-grammar" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/CAH6s0fydKLSFN40GykJ5FNR0d_DKqPi0yrAyVU%2B4wpFd6aig9Q%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/CAH6s0fydKLSFN40GykJ5FNR0d_DKqPi0yrAyVU%2B4wpFd6aig9Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > cassette tapes - analog TV - film cameras - you > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "link-grammar" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/link-grammar/FMGJq5YhbME/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/CAHrUA36GQq2B6nrFcQxN7DqQ8gZJH1DqvvaUkBp54rcR2b89Mw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/link-grammar/CAHrUA36GQq2B6nrFcQxN7DqQ8gZJH1DqvvaUkBp54rcR2b89Mw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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