Lansana, You are smart, and can obviously learn things on your own. The real question is -- what do you want to do? Business? Engineering? Science research? Leadership?
Science is hard/impossible without a formal education (at the PhD level). Getting a license to practice engineering requires passing formal tests, which means college. In business there is a large (huge) financial advantage to getting an MBA (but only while young; business execs do not like old MBA's) and leadership - I dunno. Being in a society of peers helps you figure out how to lead. So, a few comments about college and grad school, specific to your situation. -- Schooling is best done while young, and achieves little once you are past the age of 30 or so. -- Smart, self-taught people (like you) tend to fall into one major trap when it comes to "hard science" -- they avoid the hard stuff. Not on purpose, but because it feels uninteresting. Unimportant gibberish. Most likely, you don't even know it exists. Couldn't recognize it even if it punched you in the nose. This lack is fatal for science research. It's like .. I dunno .. trying to do biochemistry, and never having heard of atoms before. it's impossible. But there are legions of these people. Usually technical people, science fans, but they .. don't know what a complex number is ... don't know what temperature is ... and then they argue... the software programmers are the worst. They don't know, they don't know that they don't know, and because they are programmers, they think they are smart. Terrible combination. College courses force you into studying the hard stuff. And even if you fail, you at least will find out it exists. You will have been punched in the nose a few times. More than a few. -- Having a PhD attached to your name earns you some fair bit of social respect. The reality is that most PhD's are just ordinary people, and most of them are not even that smart; just above-average intelligence. But the title confers respect, which can be useful. -- Only 1 out of seven PhD's end up in academia (and even then, they are often not the smartest ones) Only 1 out of 4 law students practice law ... and so on. The schools generate more than they can employ. Industry jobs aren't always much fun. Depends on what you want from life. -- Many common employers don't want, don't like PhD's. They are over-educated, and become very picky about the kind of work they want to do. They won't just do anything. Employers know this. -- Science is about discovering the secrets of reality. Not everyone is interested in that. Some people say they are, but then do not actually behave that way. You might be one of them. If you never stopped completely, ignored everything else, to spend a few hours getting totally confused about the difference between .. say for example, infrared-heat and thermal heat, or square roots vs cube roots, .. the length of a diagonal .. then you are not a scientist. This starts early, before the age of 10. If you haven't done this by now, you never will. If you do this all the time, then get thyself to a top-tier university as fast as possible. It will save your life. -- Linas On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:47 AM Lansana Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Sorry to hijack this conversation, and double sorry for the > pompous-sounding nature of my question and/or self-description; I just felt > like this would be a fitting place to ask it, and I don't know any other > way to phrase the question or describe myself. > > I wanted to reiterate some things that were previously stated because they > are causing me some cognitive dissonance. There seem to be some conflicting > statements in this email thread, or maybe I'm just misinterpreting them. > > I think having one or preferably more people w/ that sort of > > integrative knowledge is highly valuable for any AGI project > > + > >> MS in Cog Sci is a great idea if you want to work seriously on AGI > > + > >> *Universities were invented 800 years ago as a social structure to allow >> old smart people to have the freedom to do research without worrying where >> their next meal is coming from, to recruit and train young geniuses to >> carry on, and to create walls to keep out the liars, cheats, morons and >> other destructive elements. It is the only social structure that I can >> think of to have survived for so long. The only other thing I can think of >> is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented around the same time.* >> *That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight.* > > > *Questions:* > > - Is university recommended or not? > - If so, and based on my background (below), would a masters/PhD in > Cognitive Science be a good path forward, or would another field be more > ideal for someone like me? > > *Background:* > > While I don't have an undergraduate degree (dropped out of university to > start my tech career when I was 19), I am very broadly learned. That is to > say that: > > - I'm a Software Engineer with five years of professional experience > and around a decade of overall IT experience. I have a decent understanding > of CS fundamentals because I've studied them on my own outside of school. I > have tested this knowledge by recently interviewing with FAANG companies > and doing well, though that may not be a great measure. > - In an intent to understand myself and the world around me, I have > also built a good foundation on topics like Psychology, Neuroscience, > Biology, Philosophy, Sociology, etc. These are topics that really interest > me. I actively read books and study them through various mediums. > - I am well-travelled and feel like I have a lot of perspective; I was > born in a third-world African country, I was raised in North America and > live the privileged life of a 1%er, I've travelled through Europe and I > have also lived in Asia for two years. > - I am quadrilingual (some better than others). > - I have been deep in religion (through my upbringing), so I have an > understanding of how the mind works in those sorts of contexts, but I also > left religion so I can grasp the thinking process behind agnosticism, > atheism, etc. as well. > > I'm not sure if all of that personal background is relevant to AGI, but I > figured it may be worth mentioning in case it changes the answer to my > question at all. > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 7:55 AM Murilo Saraiva de Queiroz < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Linas and Ben! Long time no see! :-) >> >> Linas, I simply *loved* this part, I want to use it everytime someone >> asks me if going to college is " worth the effort": >> >> >> >> *Universities were invented 800 years ago as a social structure to allow >> old smart people to have the freedom to do research without worrying where >> their next meal is coming from, to recruit and train young geniuses to >> carry on, and to create walls to keep out the liars, cheats, morons and >> other destructive elements. It is the only social structure that I can >> think of to have survived for so long. The only other thing I can think of >> is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented around the same time.* >> >> *That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight. * >> >> Best, >> >> Murilo >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:12 PM Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I'm with Ben, on this. >>> >>> To amplify a few points: Universities were invented 800 years ago as a >>> social structure to allow old smart people to have the freedom to do >>> research without worrying where their next meal is coming from, to recruit >>> and train young geniuses to carry on, and to create walls to keep out the >>> liars, cheats, morons and other destructive elements. It is the only social >>> structure that I can think of to have survived for so long. The only other >>> thing I can think of is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented >>> around the same time. >>> >>> That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >>> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >>> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >>> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >>> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight. >>> >>> As to being a jack-of-all-trades, that takes time and patience. Grad >>> school is designed to be a forced march to the top of the mountain-peak; >>> there is no time to stop and smell the roses. Yet reading a bit of >>> everything takes a very long time - a decade, or two or more. It is >>> essential to obtain a strong foundation. Without that foundation, you >>> become one of those people on facebook (or wikipedia) who ... I dunno... >>> post smart-sounding drivel and nonsense about QM or general relativity or >>> whatever. And then get into endless silly arguments about it. These people >>> are jacks-of-no-trades, and anti-masters of all. >>> >>> Re: cog-sci -- do not confuse it with software engineering. They are >>> very different things. Cog-sci is theoretical, mathematical. Software >>> engineering teaches you how to build things in a safe, functional, >>> dependable fashion. >>> >>> Re: AGI -- it requires research, not engineering. You can't assemble a >>> team of engineers and say "build me an AGI". That said, let me contrast to >>> "big science physics", and to "tabletop biochemistry". So in "big-science >>> physics", e.g. telescopes, colliders, you have 10-100 million dollar >>> budgets, teams of 20-500 people working for a decade to construct a >>> scientific instrument. An army of grad students function as engineers, >>> building the thing, with professional engineers providing guidance. In >>> "table-top biochemistry", you mail-order some reagents and some bacteria, >>> and a week later, you are crispr-cas-ing some genes in your kitchen. >>> >>> AGI research is mostly in the middle between these two. It's hard to do >>> anything in AGI without "lab equipment", it's hard (impossible) to procure >>> that "lab equipment", so you have to build it yourself. And it's almost >>> impossible to convince someone else to build it for you (e.g. an >>> "engineer") because they tend to mis-understand the problem, and build the >>> thing they know how to build, instead of building what needs to be built. >>> >>> Perhaps Microsoft or maybe google has good "lab equipment" lying around >>> for you to use, but its ... proprietary, and it might take a decade before >>> they let you lay your fingers on it. Or something. The goings-on in those >>> companies are opaque to me. >>> >>> --linas >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> > - Can an AGI be made without there existing a single person knowing >>>> the relevant parts from Neuroscience, Psychology, Machine Learning, >>>> Philosophy - and perhaps some more relevant parts from Computer Science? >>>> I'd guess this question is impossible to answer, since we don't have an AGI >>>> yet; but from the perspective of how teams work - does it become necessary >>>> for at least one person to know the relevant parts from the various fields, >>>> so as to be able to coordinate the team's efforts? I myself don't have much >>>> (any perhaps) experience with leading teams; and hence, I wanted to seek >>>> experienced opinions. In essence, is the "broad yet deep" background too >>>> much to aim for? >>>> >>>> I think having one or preferably more people w/ that sort of >>>> integrative knowledge is highly valuable for any AGI project >>>> >>>> > >>>> > - Are there any opinions about whether a Masters in Cognitive Science >>>> is worthwhile, or would I be better off pursuing the Masters in something >>>> more specific? >>>> >>>> MS in Cog Sci is a great idea if you want to work seriously on AGI >>>> >>>> > - In case I'm better off pursuing the Masters in something else, is >>>> it feasible to just do it from online courses? I've a strong bias towards >>>> online self-directed learning - and I want to learn things without being >>>> much involved in the research itself. For instance, I am learning machine >>>> learning, but I do not want to invest myself in ML research. I'm also not >>>> very convinced by the way academia exists today in the age of internet, and >>>> think it can be improved. This goes off on a tangent though. For >>>> self-learning AGI itself, there exist a ton of resources at >>>> agi-society.org (the links seem broken in recent days though; >>>> internet-archive helps); but I'd be very dubious if studying that would >>>> help me pay my bills. >>>> >>>> >>>> Universities suck badly in many ways, yet they are the most reliably >>>> OK institution humanity has yet found for systematically fostering >>>> research and education. Online learning is fantastic, but does not >>>> quite substitute for the complex implicit learning that comes from >>>> being part of a social group focused on learning and advancing a >>>> particular area of knowledge (such as one gets from good old F2F grad >>>> school, as least in non-shitty cases...) >>>> >>>> -- Ben >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CACYTDBdnxU%2BSBDdY-5daWiKHdQuZgr752cGRjL6N7yGPv1C4tw%40mail.gmail.com >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. >>> --Peter da Silva >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "opencog" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35pwC%2Be%3D8Vcc-fgwe851MDHn795paaERs3y_0vM4AfwpA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35pwC%2Be%3D8Vcc-fgwe851MDHn795paaERs3y_0vM4AfwpA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Murilo Saraiva de Queiroz, MSc* >> *Hardware Engineer at NVIDIA* >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "opencog" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAJ1aRoEbM8aPTYAkhKm4V6h2ia-%2B3JBajvNrHTc8SXxQyxRprA%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAJ1aRoEbM8aPTYAkhKm4V6h2ia-%2B3JBajvNrHTc8SXxQyxRprA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "opencog" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrHr9TqEFY1NwRfOwW_eRBkKxmGUiVnzqoyJAfOKB5ONQ%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrHr9TqEFY1NwRfOwW_eRBkKxmGUiVnzqoyJAfOKB5ONQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. --Peter da Silva -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA34YyS_7CHcGK8CNFgoNjnY2ZW_je0q9z7S_qHDK2F%2BoXQ%40mail.gmail.com.
