Hi Linas, Love the brutal honesty! I needed to hear a lot of this, it helped me frame some of the decisions I've made and rethink a path forward.
I thought I wanted to be in “business”, but I have quit every job I’ve had out of boredom and the feeling that I’m wasting my time doing something unimportant...the feeling that I should be on a grander mission. I suppose this is my own fault, though, because I didn't know myself enough then to realize that I was only choosing companies for perks and didn’t care much about their mission (not that they were doing anything particularly interesting to begin with). Then I would have the gall to wonder why the work didn’t interest me. It turns out that money doesn’t really fulfill me beyond a certain level of financial independence and the ability to help my loved ones. After that, I decided to stop chasing money and chase experiences. But even the digital nomad lifestyle led to a dead end after two or so years of solo traveling and living in foreign nations. I kept begging the question, "what else?". I also tried “leadership”, defined in two different ways: 1. Leadership in terms of what I find myself doing from time to time, such as helping my family and friends become the best version of themselves - somewhat of a life coach, if you will. But that’s more of a natural position I’ve found myself in given the people in my life than it is a profession or something I deliberately sought after. 2. Leadership in terms of being a manager/executive of a company and telling people what to do all day long (assuming that's what the job entails). I have very little interest in that kind of thing. I prefer to be behind the scenes designing systems or something like that, and just delegating work in areas I have no expertise in. After all of this, I’ve found that nothing really invigorates me more than a curiosity that leads to some kind of deep insight and eureka moment. On my resume, I literally have a final line that states "...I love the feeling of eureka, so I try to learn something new every day". So, based on your final bullet, I think I qualify. Not only do I go down scientific rabbit holes from time to time in pursuit of eureka, I actually spent a cumulative of 400+ days over 15 years grinding out boring repetitive tasks on an MMORPG, just to get a cape. This is what actually led me to programming when I was younger, because I wanted to learn how to automate those tasks (aka cheat) by writing bot scripts. With that as a given, I would like to think that I have the anal retentive capacity to do deep research for an extended period of time, as long as their is a seemingly worthy mission attached to it. The reason I didn't give up on the MMORPG cape out of boredom (like I did with some jobs) was because there was a mission attached to it, and that mission gave me a reason to keep going; all I wanted was that cool cape. For the past year or so, I haven't been able to think of anything more exciting than doing some kind of research on the mind/consciousness, as that to me seems like one of the final frontiers. Cognitive Science seems like a good path for that kind of thing, and it sounds like I haven’t missed the mark you defined for college as I’m still just 24 years old (haven't hit that 30 number yet). I think I'll find a path back into university to study Cognitive Science and see where that takes me. Thanks for thought juice. I hope to repay you some day. On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> wrote: Lansana, > > You are smart, and can obviously learn things on your own. The real > question is -- what do you want to do? Business? Engineering? Science > research? Leadership? > > Science is hard/impossible without a formal education (at the PhD level). > Getting a license to practice engineering requires passing formal tests, > which means college. In business there is a large (huge) financial > advantage to getting an MBA (but only while young; business execs do not > like old MBA's) and leadership - I dunno. Being in a society of peers helps > you figure out how to lead. > > So, a few comments about college and grad school, specific to your > situation. > > -- Schooling is best done while young, and achieves little once you are > past the age of 30 or so. > -- Smart, self-taught people (like you) tend to fall into one major trap > when it comes to "hard science" -- they avoid the hard stuff. Not on > purpose, but because it feels uninteresting. Unimportant gibberish. Most > likely, you don't even know it exists. Couldn't recognize it even if it > punched you in the nose. > > This lack is fatal for science research. It's like .. I dunno .. trying > to do biochemistry, and never having heard of atoms before. it's > impossible. But there are legions of these people. Usually technical > people, science fans, but they .. don't know what a complex number is ... > don't know what temperature is ... and then they argue... the software > programmers are the worst. They don't know, they don't know that they don't > know, and because they are programmers, they think they are smart. Terrible > combination. > > College courses force you into studying the hard stuff. And even if you > fail, you at least will find out it exists. You will have been punched in > the nose a few times. More than a few. > > -- Having a PhD attached to your name earns you some fair bit of social > respect. The reality is that most PhD's are just ordinary people, and most > of them are not even that smart; just above-average intelligence. But the > title confers respect, which can be useful. > -- Only 1 out of seven PhD's end up in academia (and even then, they are > often not the smartest ones) Only 1 out of 4 law students practice law ... > and so on. The schools generate more than they can employ. Industry jobs > aren't always much fun. Depends on what you want from life. > -- Many common employers don't want, don't like PhD's. They are > over-educated, and become very picky about the kind of work they want to > do. They won't just do anything. Employers know this. > -- Science is about discovering the secrets of reality. Not everyone is > interested in that. Some people say they are, but then do not actually > behave that way. You might be one of them. If you never stopped completely, > ignored everything else, to spend a few hours getting totally confused > about the difference between .. say for example, infrared-heat and thermal > heat, or square roots vs cube roots, .. the length of a diagonal .. then > you are not a scientist. This starts early, before the age of 10. If you > haven't done this by now, you never will. If you do this all the time, then > get thyself to a top-tier university as fast as possible. It will save your > life. > > -- Linas > > > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:47 AM Lansana Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Sorry to hijack this conversation, and double sorry for the >> pompous-sounding nature of my question and/or self-description; I just felt >> like this would be a fitting place to ask it, and I don't know any other >> way to phrase the question or describe myself. >> >> I wanted to reiterate some things that were previously stated because >> they are causing me some cognitive dissonance. There seem to be some >> conflicting statements in this email thread, or maybe I'm just >> misinterpreting them. >> >> I think having one or preferably more people w/ that sort of >> >> integrative knowledge is highly valuable for any AGI project >> >> + >> >>> MS in Cog Sci is a great idea if you want to work seriously on AGI >> >> + >> >>> *Universities were invented 800 years ago as a social structure to allow >>> old smart people to have the freedom to do research without worrying where >>> their next meal is coming from, to recruit and train young geniuses to >>> carry on, and to create walls to keep out the liars, cheats, morons and >>> other destructive elements. It is the only social structure that I can >>> think of to have survived for so long. The only other thing I can think of >>> is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented around the same time.* >>> *That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >>> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >>> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >>> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >>> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight.* >> >> >> *Questions:* >> >> - Is university recommended or not? >> - If so, and based on my background (below), would a masters/PhD in >> Cognitive Science be a good path forward, or would another field be more >> ideal for someone like me? >> >> *Background:* >> >> While I don't have an undergraduate degree (dropped out of university to >> start my tech career when I was 19), I am very broadly learned. That is to >> say that: >> >> - I'm a Software Engineer with five years of professional experience >> and around a decade of overall IT experience. I have a decent >> understanding >> of CS fundamentals because I've studied them on my own outside of school. >> I >> have tested this knowledge by recently interviewing with FAANG companies >> and doing well, though that may not be a great measure. >> - In an intent to understand myself and the world around me, I have >> also built a good foundation on topics like Psychology, Neuroscience, >> Biology, Philosophy, Sociology, etc. These are topics that really interest >> me. I actively read books and study them through various mediums. >> - I am well-travelled and feel like I have a lot of perspective; I >> was born in a third-world African country, I was raised in North America >> and live the privileged life of a 1%er, I've travelled through Europe and >> I >> have also lived in Asia for two years. >> - I am quadrilingual (some better than others). >> - I have been deep in religion (through my upbringing), so I have an >> understanding of how the mind works in those sorts of contexts, but I also >> left religion so I can grasp the thinking process behind agnosticism, >> atheism, etc. as well. >> >> I'm not sure if all of that personal background is relevant to AGI, but I >> figured it may be worth mentioning in case it changes the answer to my >> question at all. >> >> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 7:55 AM Murilo Saraiva de Queiroz < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Linas and Ben! Long time no see! :-) >>> >>> Linas, I simply *loved* this part, I want to use it everytime someone >>> asks me if going to college is " worth the effort": >>> >>> >>> >>> *Universities were invented 800 years ago as a social structure to allow >>> old smart people to have the freedom to do research without worrying where >>> their next meal is coming from, to recruit and train young geniuses to >>> carry on, and to create walls to keep out the liars, cheats, morons and >>> other destructive elements. It is the only social structure that I can >>> think of to have survived for so long. The only other thing I can think of >>> is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented around the same time.* >>> >>> *That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >>> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >>> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >>> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >>> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight. * >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Murilo >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:12 PM Linas Vepstas <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm with Ben, on this. >>>> >>>> To amplify a few points: Universities were invented 800 years ago as a >>>> social structure to allow old smart people to have the freedom to do >>>> research without worrying where their next meal is coming from, to recruit >>>> and train young geniuses to carry on, and to create walls to keep out the >>>> liars, cheats, morons and other destructive elements. It is the only social >>>> structure that I can think of to have survived for so long. The only other >>>> thing I can think of is the legal theory of evidence, which was invented >>>> around the same time. >>>> >>>> That said, there are problems. Being an academic requires you to take a >>>> vow of poverty. If you are lucky, you can pay your bills, but just barely. >>>> Modern capitalistic thinking has helped damage the university; assistant >>>> and associate professors are abused. Tenure and publish-or-perish has >>>> created the crisis of replication, with no cure in sight. >>>> >>>> As to being a jack-of-all-trades, that takes time and patience. Grad >>>> school is designed to be a forced march to the top of the mountain-peak; >>>> there is no time to stop and smell the roses. Yet reading a bit of >>>> everything takes a very long time - a decade, or two or more. It is >>>> essential to obtain a strong foundation. Without that foundation, you >>>> become one of those people on facebook (or wikipedia) who ... I dunno... >>>> post smart-sounding drivel and nonsense about QM or general relativity or >>>> whatever. And then get into endless silly arguments about it. These people >>>> are jacks-of-no-trades, and anti-masters of all. >>>> >>>> Re: cog-sci -- do not confuse it with software engineering. They are >>>> very different things. Cog-sci is theoretical, mathematical. Software >>>> engineering teaches you how to build things in a safe, functional, >>>> dependable fashion. >>>> >>>> Re: AGI -- it requires research, not engineering. You can't assemble a >>>> team of engineers and say "build me an AGI". That said, let me contrast to >>>> "big science physics", and to "tabletop biochemistry". So in "big-science >>>> physics", e.g. telescopes, colliders, you have 10-100 million dollar >>>> budgets, teams of 20-500 people working for a decade to construct a >>>> scientific instrument. An army of grad students function as engineers, >>>> building the thing, with professional engineers providing guidance. In >>>> "table-top biochemistry", you mail-order some reagents and some bacteria, >>>> and a week later, you are crispr-cas-ing some genes in your kitchen. >>>> >>>> AGI research is mostly in the middle between these two. It's hard to do >>>> anything in AGI without "lab equipment", it's hard (impossible) to procure >>>> that "lab equipment", so you have to build it yourself. And it's almost >>>> impossible to convince someone else to build it for you (e.g. an >>>> "engineer") because they tend to mis-understand the problem, and build the >>>> thing they know how to build, instead of building what needs to be built. >>>> >>>> Perhaps Microsoft or maybe google has good "lab equipment" lying around >>>> for you to use, but its ... proprietary, and it might take a decade before >>>> they let you lay your fingers on it. Or something. The goings-on in those >>>> companies are opaque to me. >>>> >>>> --linas >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:48 PM Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> > - Can an AGI be made without there existing a single person knowing >>>>> the relevant parts from Neuroscience, Psychology, Machine Learning, >>>>> Philosophy - and perhaps some more relevant parts from Computer Science? >>>>> I'd guess this question is impossible to answer, since we don't have an >>>>> AGI >>>>> yet; but from the perspective of how teams work - does it become necessary >>>>> for at least one person to know the relevant parts from the various >>>>> fields, >>>>> so as to be able to coordinate the team's efforts? I myself don't have >>>>> much >>>>> (any perhaps) experience with leading teams; and hence, I wanted to seek >>>>> experienced opinions. In essence, is the "broad yet deep" background too >>>>> much to aim for? >>>>> >>>>> I think having one or preferably more people w/ that sort of >>>>> integrative knowledge is highly valuable for any AGI project >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > - Are there any opinions about whether a Masters in Cognitive >>>>> Science is worthwhile, or would I be better off pursuing the Masters in >>>>> something more specific? >>>>> >>>>> MS in Cog Sci is a great idea if you want to work seriously on AGI >>>>> >>>>> > - In case I'm better off pursuing the Masters in something else, is >>>>> it feasible to just do it from online courses? I've a strong bias towards >>>>> online self-directed learning - and I want to learn things without being >>>>> much involved in the research itself. For instance, I am learning machine >>>>> learning, but I do not want to invest myself in ML research. I'm also not >>>>> very convinced by the way academia exists today in the age of internet, >>>>> and >>>>> think it can be improved. This goes off on a tangent though. For >>>>> self-learning AGI itself, there exist a ton of resources at >>>>> agi-society.org (the links seem broken in recent days though; >>>>> internet-archive helps); but I'd be very dubious if studying that would >>>>> help me pay my bills. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Universities suck badly in many ways, yet they are the most reliably >>>>> OK institution humanity has yet found for systematically fostering >>>>> research and education. Online learning is fantastic, but does not >>>>> quite substitute for the complex implicit learning that comes from >>>>> being part of a social group focused on learning and advancing a >>>>> particular area of knowledge (such as one gets from good old F2F grad >>>>> school, as least in non-shitty cases...) >>>>> >>>>> -- Ben >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CACYTDBdnxU%2BSBDdY-5daWiKHdQuZgr752cGRjL6N7yGPv1C4tw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. >>>> --Peter da Silva >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "opencog" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35pwC%2Be%3D8Vcc-fgwe851MDHn795paaERs3y_0vM4AfwpA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA35pwC%2Be%3D8Vcc-fgwe851MDHn795paaERs3y_0vM4AfwpA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Murilo Saraiva de Queiroz, MSc* >>> *Hardware Engineer at NVIDIA* >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "opencog" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAJ1aRoEbM8aPTYAkhKm4V6h2ia-%2B3JBajvNrHTc8SXxQyxRprA%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAJ1aRoEbM8aPTYAkhKm4V6h2ia-%2B3JBajvNrHTc8SXxQyxRprA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "opencog" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrHr9TqEFY1NwRfOwW_eRBkKxmGUiVnzqoyJAfOKB5ONQ%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAPPXERrHr9TqEFY1NwRfOwW_eRBkKxmGUiVnzqoyJAfOKB5ONQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > > > -- > Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer. > --Peter da Silva > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "opencog" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA34YyS_7CHcGK8CNFgoNjnY2ZW_je0q9z7S_qHDK2F%2BoXQ%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/opencog/CAHrUA34YyS_7CHcGK8CNFgoNjnY2ZW_je0q9z7S_qHDK2F%2BoXQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "opencog" group. 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