David Duffey <mailto:david.duf...@canonical.com>
October 18, 2016 at 11:45 AM
On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Carlos Cardenas
<car...@cumulusnetworks.com <mailto:car...@cumulusnetworks.com>> wrote:
David,
I think what you are describing are some good points on the
resource constraints on the WAPs.
However, saying that using ONIE increases your disk storage by
1.5GB is over the top.
Hi Carlos, the 2GB statement / recommended minimum requirement did not
come from me nor was it in reference to Canonical / Ubuntu. On the
call I reported 512MB of storage recommended minimum requirement for
Ubuntu Core.
Yes the 2G statement came from me based on how ONL installs currently.
128M for ONIE
128M for ONL-BOOT
128M for ONL-CONFIG
400+M for ONL-IMAGES
and the rest for ONL-DATA
ONL images are around 120M (but can be bigger depending on the system),
so there is space for two on images. If you install ONL to disk it
takes about 700MB right now. Putting all those numbers together, we get
> 1G so 2G since those are common flash disk sizes. If you don't
install ONL to disk, you can run with < 1G.
For example, take a look at the Edgecore 4600, it's an old PPC/BCM
Apollo2 1G switch with 1GB of Flash and 2GB of RAM and one of the
first switches to support ONIE. Grant it, it's more than the
current WAPs but ONIE/NOS functionality is just fine (even during
installation). ONIE is just 4MB on this box.
I think what you are describing (limitations and constraints) is
an artifact with the Ubuntu installer more than anything. Would
you agree?
No, the _Ubuntu_ installer does not have this problem.
To split hairs, the current onie-installer that installs Ubuntu has
this limitation/constraints but is not unique to Ubuntu. (Again, this
was NOT brought up by Canonical/Ubuntu, but am following up to say
that it affects the onie-installer for Ubuntu as well).
And yes, ONIE is a requirement for OCP hardware. (Until such time
something better replaces it)
I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot-pole :)
+--+
Carlos
On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM, David Duffey
<david.duf...@canonical.com <mailto:david.duf...@canonical.com>>
wrote:
On the CBW call yesterday it was asked what specs the
operating systems would target for APs and there was a range
of feedback from 512M of storage (Ubuntu Core) to 2G of
storage (including ONIE). Ubuntu Core itself recommends 512M
of storage and 256M of ram (including OpenWRT.snap), but
requires more when using ONIE, probably similar to other
solutions mentioned on the call. I went back and looked into
it a bit more so for those interested in the numbers ...
In theory we could do something as low as 128M of storage, but
it would be extremely tight and not allow for expected /
normal behavior. In the case of Ubuntu Core you would lose
the functionality of being able to do atomic transnational
updates with roll-backs. It would force you into a
single-function, non-extensible, firmware-like experience. In
addition, this is "in theory" and would require additional
engineering work to get to that small (Ubuntu Core installed
is about 150M now depending on the target platform).
From the Ubuntu Core Side, about 150M+ is used by the
kernel.snap and os.snap (roughly 50/50). In order to do
transactional updates with rollback of these two snaps, double
that to 300M+ for the base distribution. Then you'll want to
leave some room to install applications and additional
functionality, getting us to the nice round number of 512M.
For reference, the OpenWrt.snap package is 3M in size. You
can install that by running
"sudo snap install --devmode --edge openwrt"
I have been doing this on a Rasberry Pi3 Ubuntu Core image and
it has been working well. Once installed it does not take any
additional space (it is a compressed squashfs). Double that
to 6M for updates/rollbacks and a few KB for local
configuration, etc. This is small because it leverages the
running Ubuntu Core kernel.
To give another example of disk space usage, installing
nmap.deb on classic Ubuntu takes up about 30MB of disk space
including unique-to-only-nmap dependencies. Installing
nmap.snap takes up about 6MB of diskspace (including all
dependencies). So for most environments you'll use/need less
disk space with Ubuntu Core, including add-on software, than
classic Linux despite the inclusion of dependencies into the snap.
Images will start to show up here:
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/
<http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/>
If you want Pi3 images they will show up above "soon", or
e-mail me and I can point you to where they are currently
hosted, and I can also provide you scripts to convert Ubuntu
Core images to ONIE installable-images. Anyone can start
building kernel snaps, Ubuntu Core images, snaps, and ONIE
compatible images today.
256M memory + 512M storage minimum recommendations for Ubuntu
assumes locally installed or PXE-installed. This is currently
how we have been installing on wifi/AP devices (developer
focused devices like the Pi3 or enterprise devices like the
Dell IoT Gateway).
If using ONIE there are a couple of additional
requirements, you will need space for the ONIE kernel, install
environment, etc, on disk. The onie-installer as currently
written downloads the NOS image to memory, expands it, then
writes to disk. We need about 750MB of free usable memory
(after ONIE), so at least ~1G of memory but I have not tested
this myself and may need more as all the switches I've
ONIE-installed to have had more than this. In theory this
could be reduced if we ported the native
OS installer streaming-to-disk functionality to ONIE (instead
of using the ONIE template we based off of).
I think it is fair to point out that ONIE is one supported
bootloader for OCP hardware but it is not a requirement.
David
--
David Duffey
+1-512-850-6776 <tel:%2B1-512-850-6776> (work),
+1-512-287-4289 <tel:%2B1-512-287-4289> (work fax)
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David Duffey
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Carlos Cardenas <mailto:car...@cumulusnetworks.com>
October 18, 2016 at 11:34 AM
David,
I think what you are describing are some good points on the resource
constraints on the WAPs.
However, saying that using ONIE increases your disk storage by 1.5GB
is over the top.
For example, take a look at the Edgecore 4600, it's an old PPC/BCM
Apollo2 1G switch with 1GB of Flash and 2GB of RAM and one of the
first switches to support ONIE. Grant it, it's more than the current
WAPs but ONIE/NOS functionality is just fine (even during
installation). ONIE is just 4MB on this box.
I think what you are describing (limitations and constraints) is an
artifact with the Ubuntu installer more than anything. Would you agree?
And yes, ONIE is a requirement for OCP hardware. (Until such time
something better replaces it)
+--+
Carlos
David Duffey <mailto:david.duf...@canonical.com>
October 18, 2016 at 11:09 AM
On the CBW call yesterday it was asked what specs the operating
systems would target for APs and there was a range of feedback from
512M of storage (Ubuntu Core) to 2G of storage (including ONIE).
Ubuntu Core itself recommends 512M of storage and 256M of ram
(including OpenWRT.snap), but requires more when using ONIE, probably
similar to other solutions mentioned on the call. I went back and
looked into it a bit more so for those interested in the numbers ...
In theory we could do something as low as 128M of storage, but it
would be extremely tight and not allow for expected / normal
behavior. In the case of Ubuntu Core you would lose the functionality
of being able to do atomic transnational updates with roll-backs. It
would force you into a single-function, non-extensible, firmware-like
experience. In addition, this is "in theory" and would require
additional engineering work to get to that small (Ubuntu Core
installed is about 150M now depending on the target platform).
From the Ubuntu Core Side, about 150M+ is used by the kernel.snap and
os.snap (roughly 50/50). In order to do transactional updates with
rollback of these two snaps, double that to 300M+ for the base
distribution. Then you'll want to leave some room to install
applications and additional functionality, getting us to the nice
round number of 512M.
For reference, the OpenWrt.snap package is 3M in size. You can
install that by running
"sudo snap install --devmode --edge openwrt"
I have been doing this on a Rasberry Pi3 Ubuntu Core image and it has
been working well. Once installed it does not take any additional
space (it is a compressed squashfs). Double that to 6M for
updates/rollbacks and a few KB for local configuration, etc. This is
small because it leverages the running Ubuntu Core kernel.
To give another example of disk space usage, installing nmap.deb on
classic Ubuntu takes up about 30MB of disk space including
unique-to-only-nmap dependencies. Installing nmap.snap takes up about
6MB of diskspace (including all dependencies). So for most
environments you'll use/need less disk space with Ubuntu Core,
including add-on software, than classic Linux despite the inclusion of
dependencies into the snap.
Images will start to show up here:
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/
<http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/xenial/daily-preinstalled/current/>
If you want Pi3 images they will show up above "soon", or e-mail me
and I can point you to where they are currently hosted, and I can also
provide you scripts to convert Ubuntu Core images to ONIE
installable-images. Anyone can start building kernel snaps, Ubuntu
Core images, snaps, and ONIE compatible images today.
256M memory + 512M storage minimum recommendations for Ubuntu assumes
locally installed or PXE-installed. This is currently how we have
been installing on wifi/AP devices (developer focused devices like the
Pi3 or enterprise devices like the Dell IoT Gateway).
If using ONIE there are a couple of additional requirements, you will
need space for the ONIE kernel, install environment, etc, on disk.
The onie-installer as currently written downloads the NOS image to
memory, expands it, then writes to disk. We need about 750MB of free
usable memory (after ONIE), so at least ~1G of memory but I have not
tested this myself and may need more as all the switches I've
ONIE-installed to have had more than this. In theory this could be
reduced if we ported the native OS installer streaming-to-disk
functionality to ONIE (instead of using the ONIE template we based off
of).
I think it is fair to point out that ONIE is one supported bootloader
for OCP hardware but it is not a requirement.
David
--
David Duffey
+1-512-850-6776 <tel:%2B1-512-850-6776> (work), +1-512-287-4289
<tel:%2B1-512-287-4289> (work fax)
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