Pablo, It is as Thomas and I wrote.
Open world Assumption: Ontologies declare absolute truths irrespective of geographical location and point in time. Closed World Assumption: Archetypes help express what an author wants to document. These are very subjective truths at a point in time. This subtle but important distinction is only one of the reasons to refrain from the use of pre-coorodinated SNOMED terms. Things like these matter when we start to reason about the documented patient data. Gerard Freriks +31 620347088 gf...@luna.nl Kattensingel 20 2801 CA Gouda the Netherlands > On 2 Apr 2018, at 01:11, Pablo Pazos <pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com> wrote: > > I'm sorry but "...no cancer was, is, or will be present." doesn't even make > sense. No system can record what can or can't happen in the future, and that > concept is not part of any terminology AFAIK. > > On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 7:35 PM, GF <gf...@luna.nl <mailto:gf...@luna.nl>> > wrote: > Thomas, > > OpenEHR and 13606 deal with Closed World Assumption systems. > And therefor both mean in the case of 'No Cancer' that Cancer was not found > in the database or that No Cancer was the documented result of an evaluation. > Both statements are documented things in a Template that according to the > author cancer is not found. > But any time in the future it might. > > 'No Cancer' as pre-coordinated term in the case of SNOMED means that no > cancer was, is, or will be present. > > Gerard Freriks > +31 620347088 <tel:+31%206%2020347088> > gf...@luna.nl <mailto:gf...@luna.nl> > > Kattensingel 20 > 2801 CA Gouda > the Netherlands > >> On 1 Apr 2018, at 14:41, Thomas Beale <thomas.be...@openehr.org >> <mailto:thomas.be...@openehr.org>> wrote: >> >> >> On 01/04/2018 13:16, GF wrote: >>> Pre-coordinated SNOMED codes are like classifications, in that they are >>> used at the user level, the User Interface, >>> The Ontology behind SNOMED allows the pre-ordinated codes to be decomposed >>> in its constituents. >>> These decomposed primitive codes can be used in structures like archetypes >>> at the proper places. >>> In this way the pre-coorodinated SNOMED codes are iso-semantic. >>> >>> But we keep the semantic differences codes expressed using the SNOMED >>> ontology and the Archetype and its codes. >>> Ontologies have the Open World Assumption. A pre-corodinated code like: >>> No-Cancer means never there was, is or will be cancer. Ontologies describe >>> reality. >>> In archetypes that use the Closed World Assumption Diagnosis=cancer, >>> PresenceModifier=No means No Cancer found but perhaps they are. It just was >>> not found. Presence of absence in a database are described. >> >> I'm unclear why you call this a use of the closed world assumption: the >> entire openEHR framework is for building HISs that enable reporting of >> reality as it is known to those working in it. So if they put 'No cancer' >> that just means that the current clinical thinking for some patient, with >> respect to some investigation, is that the original presenting problem is >> not cancer. >> >> That never means that the patient doesn't have cancer in their body >> somewhere, it just means that the currently investigated signs and symptoms >> don't relate to cancer, according to the the investigation carried out. Even >> that can be overturned later. But everyone assumes this - the EHR is always >> understood as an 'open world' system, where absence of X doesn't mean >> negation of X, it just means that no-one has investigated X. >> >> - thomas >> _______________________________________________ >> openEHR-technical mailing list >> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org >> <mailto:openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org> >> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org >> >> <http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org> > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > <mailto:openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > <http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org> > > > > -- > Ing. Pablo Pazos Gutiérrez > pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com <mailto:pablo.pa...@cabolabs.com> > +598 99 043 145 > skype: cabolabs > <http://cabolabs.com/> > http://www.cabolabs.com <http://www.cabolabs.com/> > https://cloudehrserver.com <https://cloudehrserver.com/> > Subscribe to our newsletter <http://eepurl.com/b_w_tj> > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
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