Thanks Sebastian, You summarised my views much better than me.
As policy, I think we should stop using it for future archetypes, and simply use the metadata to declare 'assumptions' where they make sense, although I agree it is very risky to assert 'x' where data is simply missing. Ian Dr Ian McNicoll mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 office +44 (0)1536 414994 skype: ianmcnicoll email: i...@freshehr.com twitter: @ianmcnicoll Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. Director, HANDIHealth CIC Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL On Tue, 9 Oct 2018 at 10:29, Sebastian Garde < sebastian.ga...@oceaninformatics.com> wrote: > Assumed value was a slick idea at the time, but I do agree with your > sentiments now: > > - it is hardly or not at all processable, > - where there is widespread consensus on something it may well be > assumed automatically by clinicians – but this is not because someone put > the assumed value in the archetype or not. > - Elements where such consensus exists across professions/sectors are > probably rare anyway and universal consensus on an assumption is hard to > ascertain > - challenges for UI > - challenges for querying (assuming you even dare) > - challenges for anybody to understand it, including the difference to > a default value (and what happens if there is both). > > > > Not sure about the implications for dropping/deprecating this at this stage > > > > Sebastian > > > > *Von:* openEHR-technical <openehr-technical-boun...@lists.openehr.org> *Im > Auftrag von *Ian McNicoll > *Gesendet:* Montag, 8. Oktober 2018 14:43 > *An:* For openEHR clinical discussions <openehr-clini...@lists.openehr.org > > > *Cc:* For openEHR technical discussions < > openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org> > *Betreff:* Re: Seeking clarification regarding Assumed value > > > > I asked for this to be changed as we had dropped inspired oxygen into a > cluster archetype (intended to sit in state and wanted to be able to state > the assumed value of 23% (or whatever). > > > > I have come round to thinking that Assumed value is actually unhelpful. It > is only a statement on the archetype and never ends up in the data, and > completely non-processable. I think it can be easily misunderstood and is > often very difficult to assert reliably. I would not be unhappy it see it > dropped. > > > > We will however definitely need default values in specialisations e.g the > lab series. > > > > Ian > > > > > > Ian > > > > > Dr Ian McNicoll > mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 > office +44 (0)1536 414994 > skype: ianmcnicoll > email: i...@freshehr.com > twitter: @ianmcnicoll > > > > Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org > > Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. > Director, HANDIHealth CIC > Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL > > > > > > On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 at 13:23, Peter Gummer <peter.gum...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 8 Oct 2018, at 23:09, Peter Gummer <peter.gum...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > ...Attached to this email is the CLUSTER that Ian attached to the Jira > issue. > > Hmmm, I don’t think this mailing list accepts attachments. Here is the > CLUSTER as ADL. > > Peter > > > archetype (adl_version=1.4) > openEHR-EHR-CLUSTER.ambient_oxygen.v1 > > concept > [at0000] -- Ambient oxygen > language > original_language = <[ISO_639-1::en]> > translations = < > ["de"] = < > language = <[ISO_639-1::de]> > author = < > ["organisation"] = <"University of > Heidelberg, Central Queensland University"> > ["name"] = <"Jasmin Buck, Sebastian Garde"> > > > > > > > description > original_author = < > ["name"] = <"Ian McNicoll"> > ["organisation"] = <"Ocean Informatics"> > ["email"] = <"ian.mcnic...@oceaninformatics.com"> > ["date"] = <"08/06/2009"> > > > details = < > ["en"] = < > language = <[ISO_639-1::en]> > purpose = <"To record the amount of oxygen being > delivered to the subject at the time of observation. Assumed values of 21% > O2, Fi02 of 0.21 and Oxygen flow rate of zero."> > use = <"May be used within an ACTION archetype to > specificy oxygen therapy , or within OBSERVATION archetypes such as Blood > gases or Respirations, as part of patient state, where knowledge of ambient > oxygen status is critical to interpretation of the observation. > > > "> > keywords = <"breathing", "oxygen"> > misuse = <""> > copyright = <"copyright (c) 2009 openEHR > Foundation"> > > > > > lifecycle_state = <"AuthorDraft"> > other_contributors = <"Heather Leslie Ocean Informatics", > "Sebastian Garde Ocean Informatics", "Andrew James University of Toronto", > "Sundarasan Jaganathan NHS Scotland", "Omer Hotomargolu Turkey", "Marja > Buur Medisch Centrum Alkmaar Netherlands", "Gregory Caulton PatientOS > Inc.", "Anne Harbison CPCER", "Sam Heard Ocean Informatics"> > other_details = < > ["references"] = <""> > ["MD5-CAM-1.0.1"] = <"1FCF286B5D47164C5D89907DF332BC65"> > > > > definition > CLUSTER[at0000] matches { -- Ambient oxygen > items cardinality matches {0..*; unordered} matches { > ELEMENT[at0051] occurrences matches {0..1} matches > { -- Oxygen flow rate > value matches { > C_DV_QUANTITY < > property = <[openehr::126]> > list = < > ["1"] = < > units = > <"l/m"> > magnitude > = <|0.0..50.0|> > precision > = <|1|> > > > ["2"] = < > units = > <"ml/min"> > magnitude > = <|0.0..50000.0|> > precision > = <|1|> > > > > > assumed_value = < > magnitude = <0.0> > units = <"l/m"> > precision = <1> > > > > > } > } > ELEMENT[at0052] occurrences matches {0..1} matches > { -- FiO2 > value matches { > DV_PROPORTION matches { > numerator matches > {|0.0..1.0|} > is_integral matches {False} > type matches {1} > } > } > } > ELEMENT[at0053] occurrences matches {0..1} matches > { -- Percent O2 > value matches { > DV_PROPORTION matches { > numerator matches > {|0.0..100.0|} > is_integral matches {False} > type matches {2} > } > } > } > } > } > > ontology > term_definitions = < > ["de"] = < > items = < > ["at0000"] = < > text = <"*Ambient oxygen(en)"> > description = <"*The amount of > oxygen being delivered to the subject at the time of observation. Assumed > values of 21% O2, Fi02 of 0.21 and Oxygen flow rate of zero.(en)"> > > > ["at0051"] = < > text = <"*Oxygen flow rate(en)"> > description = <"*Flow rate of > inspired oxygen.(en)"> > > > ["at0052"] = < > text = <"*FiO2(en)"> > description = <"*Fraction of > inspired oxygen.(en)"> > > > ["at0053"] = < > text = <"*Percent O2(en)"> > description = <"*Percentage of > inspired oxygen.(en)"> > > > > > > > ["en"] = < > items = < > ["at0000"] = < > text = <"Ambient oxygen"> > description = <"The amount of > oxygen being delivered to the subject at the time of observation. Assumed > values of 21% O2, Fi02 of 0.21 and Oxygen flow rate of zero."> > > > ["at0051"] = < > text = <"Oxygen flow rate"> > description = <"Flow rate of > inspired oxygen."> > > > ["at0052"] = < > text = <"FiO2"> > description = <"Fraction of > inspired oxygen."> > > > ["at0053"] = < > text = <"Percent O2"> > description = <"Percentage of > inspired oxygen."> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-clinical mailing list > openehr-clini...@lists.openehr.org > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org >
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