Yes agree laterality is another potentially high value case. They should probably talk to the CIMI folks. Stan Huff has a good an idea as anyone of both the potential and pitfalls of complex terminology handling. I suspect that really held CIMI back at a critical moment but at least they have a good understanding of te challenges.
In spite of decades of attempts, I don't know of any national program that is using post-coordination to any extent. Ian Dr Ian McNicoll mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 office +44 (0)1536 414994 skype: ianmcnicoll email: i...@freshehr.com twitter: @ianmcnicoll Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. Director, HANDIHealth CIC Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 15:38, Thomas Beale <thomas.be...@openehr.org> wrote: > I mostly agree with Ian, but with the small caveat that for very specific > and well-known cases such as body laterality, you just *might consider* > post-coordination on body site e.g. > > - 56459004 |foot structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left|) > > However, even here, laterality often seems to be divided out in various > ways depending on what you are talking about. E.g. anything to do with > eyes, the whole exam is per-eye rather than each finding being marked as > being on the 'eye, left' or 'eye, right'. In other places, 'left' and > 'right' don't even have symmetrical meanings e.g. the heart (think > left-branch bundle etc). > > Nevertheless, for those body sites where findings are reported as being on > some X+left or right, I think we probably should consider post-coordination > of the site and the laterality at some point. For everything else, it's a > nice idea but forget it in data models. > > Where it could be used is via a *mapping formula *for multiple data > points, e.g. in an archetype. The archetype data would be defined populated > as a structure (as today), but a 'post-coordination formula' that indicates > how to bind the values of particular coded elements together to obtain a > Snomed expression could be used to generate such expressions from the data, > for consumption by inference engines. This is the only place where they can > be usefully computed with, in my opinion. > > Such a formula might look like this: > > - 47933007 |$pain_finding| : 363698007 |finding_site| = ( > $finding_site: 272741003 |laterality| = $laterality) > > where $pain_finding, $finding_site and $laterality are bound to paths in > the archetype. > > If the formula were evaluated, it might give this: > > - 22253000 |pain| : 363698007 |finding site| = ( 56459004 |foot > structure| : 272741003 |laterality| = 7771000 |left| ) > > With minor adjustments in the binding part of the ADL2 grammar, such > formula bindings could be accommodated fairly easily I would think. > > Note: this is speculation, and has never been tried as far as I know. Even > if it does, it's only for SNOMED, unless the SNOMED model of > post-coordinated expressions is adopted by other terminologies... > > - thomas > > On 19/11/2018 13:32, Ian McNicoll wrote: > > Basically - don't!! > > The UK has been trying to do this for over 20 years without success. It is > a terminologists dream but implementers nightmare. > > Make a start with high-value use cases e.g Allergy agent "Allergic to + > causative agent" - so that you do not have to generate a new Snomed code > for every potential allergen. > > Perhaps consider laterality. Beyond that, you risk delaying SNOMED CT > implementation, as has happened in the UK. > > Post-coordination is like nuclear fusion - a damned good idea but tricky > to do without blowing everything up. > > Ian > Ian > Dr Ian McNicoll > mobile +44 (0)775 209 7859 > office +44 (0)1536 414994 > skype: ianmcnicoll > email: i...@freshehr.com > twitter: @ianmcnicoll > > > Co-Chair, openEHR Foundation ian.mcnic...@openehr.org > Director, freshEHR Clinical Informatics Ltd. > Director, HANDIHealth CIC > Hon. Senior Research Associate, CHIME, UCL > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 13:20, Bakke, Silje Ljosland < > silje.ljosland.ba...@nasjonalikt.no> wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> >> We’ve recently started an informal and practically oriented regular >> contact with the Norwegian SNOMED CT NRC. One of the things they were >> interested in discussing was how to use postcoordinated SNOMED CT >> (expression constraint language) expressions with openEHR, which I know >> nothing about. Does anyone have any knowledge about or experience with this? >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> *Silje Ljosland Bakke* >> >> >> >> Information Architect, RN >> >> Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes >> Nasjonal IKT HF, Norway >> >> Tel. +47 40203298 >> >> Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: @arketyper_no >> <https://twitter.com/arketyper_no> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> openEHR-technical mailing list >> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org >> >> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing > listopenEHR-technical@lists.openehr.orghttp://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > -- > Thomas Beale > Principal, Ars Semantica <http://www.arssemantica.com> > Consultant, ABD Project, Intermountain Healthcare > <https://intermountainhealthcare.org/> > Management Board, Specifications Program Lead, openEHR Foundation > <http://www.openehr.org> > Chartered IT Professional Fellow, BCS, British Computer Society > <http://www.bcs.org/category/6044> > Health IT blog <http://wolandscat.net/> | Culture blog > <http://wolandsothercat.net/> | The Objective Stance > <https://theobjectivestance.net/> > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing list > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org >
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