Well, if your interest is mainly in the future “cross platform king” of languages, you might just want to have a look at Kotlin and Kotlin/Native.
Oh, and I have heard you can develop JavaFX apps with Kotlin too! > On 4 Feb 2018, at 13:37, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: > > Yes, probably me. > > Sent from iCloud > >> On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:35 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> Well, then one of us is "off topic"... >> >> >> Kevin Rushforth: >> >> "We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas: >> * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build, >> better documentation, making it easier to test changes) >> * Code review policies >> * API / feature review policies >> * Code review tools (we currently use webrev, but that isn't set in stone)" >> >>> On 4 February 2018 at 13:29, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >> >>> John, >>> >>> I think you and I are thinking on two different levels. You are >>> talking about the mechanics of making contributing to JavaFX easier. I >>> am talking about making the motivations of contributing to JavaFX easier. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> Sent from iCloud >>> >>>> On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:14 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> Stephen, >>>> >>>> 1. Swift and your "crystal ball" view of its spectacular success in the >>>> future has nothing whatsoever to do with making contributing to JavaFX >>>> easier. >>>> >>>> 2. Like everyone else who already wants to contribute to JavaFX, we don't >>>> need someone to provide us with "a compelling story as to why developers >>>> should join and contribute". >>>> >>>> 3. TL;DR >>>> >>>> John-Val Rose (trying to be polite) >>>> >>>>> On 4 February 2018 at 12:58, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> The point I am making is that Swift is catching up as a cross >>>>> platform toolkit and is available on: >>>>> >>>>> Mac and iOS, (Full Support) >>>>> https://www.swift.org >>>>> >>>>> Android (early) >>>>> https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/ >>>>> >>>>> Linux: (early) >>>>> >>>>> https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/ >>>>> >>>>> Windows: (early) >>>>> >>>>> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3067364/open-source-tools/swift-for-windows-arrives-at-last-but-as-an-unofficial-port.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Browser: (very Preliminary) >>>>> >>>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly >>>>> >>>>> Server Side: (Mac and Linux) >>>>> https://www.swift.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So my point is that soon Swift will steal the Cross Platform Mantra from >>>>> Java. It is happening very quickly and Swift has great graphics and >>>>> gaming capabilities as well. >>>>> >>>>> Why would a new developer start with Java? If we are looking 10 years >>>>> out, I think Apple is coming head on. >>>>> >>>>> Also when you say this thread is about the ease with which the community >>>>> can contribute to JavaFX, it begs the question "what kinds of >>>>> contribution?". Are we here to push the platform forward and >>>>> contribute new ideas or just do bug fixes? >>>>> >>>>> Swift is a real threat to Java being the cross platform development King. >>>>> Java can hold on to that story for only a couple more years. It >>>>> surely won't last. >>>>> >>>>> Dart also runs on Android and iOS via Flutter, has Server side Dart >>>>> option, runs in the Browser very well today with full support for SVG and >>>>> Canvas -- and if WebGPU becomes a Web standard, Google will most >>>>> certainly support it. >>>>> >>>>> Looking toward the future, if Java doesn't run in the browser, doesn't >>>>> support games on any platform, and only works on iOS and Android via >>>>> Gluon VM, and does it with only limited graphics capability, then I >>>>> think JavaFX will be a tough sell in the future. Even tougher than it >>>>> is today. >>>>> >>>>> If the point of the discussion is to build the developer community, I >>>>> think we first need a compelling story as to why developers should join >>>>> and contribute. >>>>> >>>>> The fact that I am using Dart and JavaFX, and I am seriously considering >>>>> if I should switch to Dart everywhere, or to Dart and Swift (instead of >>>>> Dart and FX) means JavaFX doesn't have the lead we think it does. I >>>>> love JavaFX and would love to contribute, but it's hard when I myself am >>>>> looking at other options mainly because I also want my software to be >>>>> here 10 years from now, and I am seriously questioning if JavaFX will >>>>> keep up. >>>>> >>>>> I think there is a small window of opportunity for JavaFX to make a stand >>>>> before it is permanently relegated to a Server side language. This >>>>> cross platform story won't fly too much longer, especially when Swift >>>>> starts to run everywhere and in the browser too, and if Google does the >>>>> same thing with Dart, and they both support games, where will Java be? >>>>> >>>>> If we are looking 10 years out then surely this will happen. The big >>>>> question is what will we do, and where will JavaFX be? >>>>> >>>>> Steve Desofi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 03, 2018, at 03:09 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Stephen - I’m not quite following you. >>>>>> >>>>>> This thread is about improving the ease with which the community can >>>>>> contribute to JavaFX. >>>>>> >>>>>> I see no point in comparing JavaFX (a cross platform graphics toolkit >>>>>> for JVM languages) with a Swift (a general purpose programming language >>>>>> that runs on Apple hardware). >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2018, at 00:18, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This begs the question, why has the bar been set too low? I am new >>>>>>> to this community and don’t know much history other than a couple weeks >>>>>>> of bug fix messages flying by. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not even clear of what our role and purpose is supposed to be. >>>>>>> Are we here for only bug fixes, and follow the direction and flow that >>>>>>> is already set, or as contributors would we be allowed to contribute to >>>>>>> the goals and direction of JavaFX? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FX is a good platform with great potential, but it biggest deficiency >>>>>>> is “mind share”. People don’t see too many real world accomplishments >>>>>>> that knock your socks off. Most people use web and phone to run apps. >>>>>>> PC and Desktop apps are a small part of the market. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gluon has just recently released gluon VM and Gluon Mobile to allow FX >>>>>>> on phones and tablets. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem I see is once I can use FX on phones how will it compete >>>>>>> with Swift? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> True that “write once, run everywhere” is important and Java has a lead >>>>>>> over Swift. But Swift has a lead on capability. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the end Swift will catch up with Java in the “write once, run >>>>>>> anywhere” mantra. Will FX catch up with Swift in graphics by then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Java has a lead in many areas, but if we look 10 years out, it seems >>>>>>> clear to me that Java needs to raise the bar or face extinction as a >>>>>>> client side development platform or forever be confined to the server. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is why I need some clarification as to what our role as >>>>>>> contributors is going to be. I don’t believe an open source project >>>>>>> can flourish if the contributors have no say or stake in the direction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Desofi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:55 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think Kevin outlined in his opening post what would be considered >>>>>>>> "out of scope". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, I agree with you on the basic premise that, in general, the >>>>>>>> bar has been set way too low as to the potential use cases and >>>>>>>> performance of JavaFX. In fact, I firmly believe that games & complex >>>>>>>> visualisations etc. *should* be possible with JavaFX given that most >>>>>>>> of the heavy lifting is being done by the GPU. It's just that, at the >>>>>>>> moment, the scene graph rendering pipeline is significantly slower >>>>>>>> than it could be and it is for this reason that we don't find >>>>>>>> applications using advanced 3D graphics & animations etc. (like we see >>>>>>>> in games) being built with JavaFX. It's just not possible when the >>>>>>>> node count reaches even a very small threshold. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is a topic I have tried to discuss numerous times and also >>>>>>>> believe that I can improve the performance of the scene graph >>>>>>>> rendering in a very tangible way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If things pan-out as they are being described and becoming & being a >>>>>>>> contributor is simplified to the extent where it justifies me devoting >>>>>>>> a large chunk of my time to OpenJFX, this is probably what I would >>>>>>>> want to work on first. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Graciously, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John-Val Rose >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3 February 2018 at 14:07, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> I don’t understand why discussing new graphics capabilities such as >>>>>>>>> gaming or WebGPU, etc is so off limits. Can you explain that? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve Desofi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > On Feb 2, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth >>>>>>>>> > <kevin.rushfo...@oracle.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Looks like we have some good discussion so far. >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I see a few themes emerging (build/test, sandbox on GitHub, ease of >>>>>>>>> > filing bugs, etc) along with some discussion on graphics >>>>>>>>> > performance (which is fine as long as the discussion doesn't veer >>>>>>>>> > too far into discussing specific graphics features). >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > I'll let more folks chime in before I reply to anything >>>>>>>>> > specifically (and I'll be offline over the weekend anyway). >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > Thanks! >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > -- Kevin >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>> >>
