It's off-topic but very relevant and indeed representative for many projects. Remember heartbleed? Almost the whole IT industry depends on OpenSSL yet didn't fund it. http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/18/technology/security/heartbleed-volunteers/
It it not easy to get funding for fundamental core technologies that empower more visual but less critical technologies. - Johan On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:09 PM Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: > Johan, > > I actually enjoy reading your “business talk”. It’s very enlightening. I > had no idea that the FX team was such a small band of gypsies. In fact > I’m shocked that such a large industry can be powered by such a small team > and not realize it themselves. > > But how could they know? I’m much closer this and care more than most > and I didn’t know either. > > The lessons I’m learning right now I’m trying to wrap my head around > because this team may be representative of most software teams everywhere. > > > How could so few do so much for all of humanity on so many different > levels and yet the whole world hasn’t got a clue. It deserves some > thought. > > Steve > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 7, 2018, at 2:47 AM, Johan Vos <johan....@gluonhq.com> wrote: > > While it's good to know who is interested in what areas, I think it's hard > to create a list of interested or capable people as that depends on > motivations. > There are many developers who used to work on the JavaFX team who are now > working elsewhere. That means there is plenty of knowledge and potential in > the world. I don't see a problem there. > > I hate to sound like a business-first person, but I think the question is > rather how many business is there in JavaFX? We can all do some things in > our spare time (and most of us do), but in the end moving the platform > forward requires more than this. It requires people working full-time on > it, hence being paid to do this. > > Now, all indications show that there is a big interest in JavaFX. For > example, we see the download numbers of Scene Builder still increasing > (about 30K downloads/month). JavaFX is much more popular on Google Trends > now than Swing. > > One of the main problems is that JavaFX is used in "hidden" areas (see > http://gluonhq.com/javafx-hidden-economy/) > If only 1% of the money spent by companies on JavaFX could be used to > maintain the core, we would be in a good shape, I believe. > > But moving back to "the future content": rather than guessing "I'ld like > to have that" it would be interesting to know what companies want to pay > for. The hard thing is then that most of the work on the OpenJFX core is > beyond the surface of what companies see, so translating those business > requirements into technical ones is not always trivial. > > Enough business talk for now, back to development :) > > - Johan > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:24 AM Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: > >> +1 >> >> This makes sense. Having a list of who might be willing to contribute >> and in what areas they are willing to contribute dictates where we can go. >> As Rumsfeld once said "You go to war with the army have, not the one you >> want". >> >> Steve >> >> Sent from iCloud >> >> On Feb 06, 2018, at 06:41 AM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Maybe Kevin could request that anyone who is seriously both willing and >> capable to contribute to OpenJFX email him privately so that the list >> doesn’t get to “see” anyone who wants to fly under the radar. >> >> Kevin could then post the approximate number of resources actually >> available. >> >> I realise of course that some people may not wish to even let Kevin know >> of their interest and availability initially but at least we would have a >> ballpark figure as to the size of the “talent pool”. >> >> I think we need to have some handle on this number before any significant >> set-up work is undertaken (just in case the number is only 2 or 3 for >> example instead of 20 or so). >> >> On 6 Feb 2018, at 22:12, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >> >> >> A poll would definitely be useful because we may find ourselves another >> subset. >> >> >> The subset of people who even want to go “off road” to begin with. Most >> people only consider going places where the road already leads—and that >> might be about 99%. >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On Feb 5, 2018, at 11:14 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> I think there’s a small matter that is being overlooked here. >> >> >> The size of the “talent pool”. >> >> >> I’m just pulling numbers out of thin air here but first I’m guessing that >> the vast majority of JavaFX users do *not* read this list. >> >> >> Then, out of those who do, only some *care* enough to contribute. >> >> >> Out of those, only some are *competent* enough to contribute. >> >> >> And then, out of that much smaller set, only an even smaller subset are >> in a situation that *permits* them to contribute, either because they have >> well-paid jobs and a bit of spare time or they really need a feature added >> for their own use. >> >> >> Given that I don’t know what the “starting” number is (the total number >> of JavaFX users) and neither do I know what fraction to apply to each >> smaller subset, the end result (the talent pool) is potentially only a >> handful of people. >> >> >> I’m simply mentioning this because in every discussion we have here >> regarding innovation, community participation or plans for new features, it >> looks like the same group of people get involved - and it’s not exactly a >> “crowd”. >> >> >> Does this mean that we don’t have a “critical mass” or is it possible >> that there are lots and lots of “observers” or “lurkers” out there just >> waiting until all the hard work of setting-up the physical and formal >> infrastructure to enable community contribution has been finalised before >> they’ll put their hands up? >> >> >> Maybe we could take a poll to see how many members of the community would >> be willing AND able to contribute, knowing that they may not necessarily >> end up working on features they are interested in AND who are prepared for >> their contribution itself & the value it adds to JavaFX to be their only >> tangible reward? >> >> >> On 6 Feb 2018, at 11:23, Stephen Desofi <sdes...@icloud.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Johan, >> >> >> I read the article you linked to ( >> http://www.tomitribe.com/blog/2013/11/feed-the-fish/) and it raises some >> very good points indeed. >> >> >> I also spent a little time thinking over your list of interests: >> >> * more alignment with mobile >> >> * a clean and lean low-level rendering pipeline API that would allow >> easier >> >> plugability with upcoming low-level rendering systems >> >> * extensions for Chart API >> >> >> Those would be high on my list as well, but there is something else I'd >> like to throw into the equation. >> >> >> If somebody can contribute money to fund the development of their >> wishlist, fine, that's the easy part, but asking people to contribute time >> is a bit more complicated. For example, I may want "more alignment with >> mobile", but I may be better qualified to contribute "extensions for the >> Chart API" even though that isn't my primary motivator. >> >> >> Often the reason we want something is because we haven't the skills to do >> it ourself, but we have skills to do other things. How can situations such >> as this be factored into the equation? It seems like we need a way to >> "trade". >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> >> Sent from iCloud >> >> >> On Feb 05, 2018, at 12:07 PM, Johan Vos <johan....@gluonhq.com> wrote: >> >> >> In order to separate the "What" from the "How" (discussed in another >> >> thread), I would like to start a discussion about what people think should >> >> be considered for future JavaFX work. >> >> >> I'd like to start with what I think is an important note on the context. >> >> If I want feature X in JavaFX, I ask myself two questions: >> >> 1. Do I want to contribute time and do it (at least for a large part) >> >> myself? >> >> 2. Do I want to spend money on it? >> >> >> If that sounds too economic or commercial, I recommend reading the >> >> excellent blog entry by David Blevins about funding Java EE development >> >> (more than 4 years old and still very relevant): >> >> http://www.tomitribe.com/blog/2013/11/feed-the-fish/ >> >> >> Actually, this is a model we've been using at Gluon for a number of >> >> customers. When people ask us about a specific feature, we ask if they are >> >> willing to pay us for the development, AND if they are ok with us donating >> >> it back to an open-source initiative (e.g. OpenJFX, but also ControlsFX, >> >> JavaFXports, Gluon Charm Down, Gluon Maps,...). >> >> As a consequence, the features we are working on are all relevant to (at >> >> least a part of) the industry. Some companies doubt there is business >> value >> >> in JavaFX, we prove the opposite while making the Open Source community >> >> better. >> >> >> I think by now it should be clear to all that there is no free lunch >> >> (anymore). If your business depends on a feature being added to JavaFX, >> how >> >> much (time/money) are you willing to contribute? If the answer is >> >> "nothing", you can still hope that others want to do it, and in many cases >> >> that will eventually happen -- but you don't control the timeline. >> >> >> This principle is a bit a simplification though. In many practical cases, >> >> people want to have feature X and are willing to contribute "something" >> >> (e.g. they want to work on it in spare-time, or fund 20% of a developer) >> >> but not enough to do everything. >> >> I think in this case it's a matter of gathering enough interest in this >> >> community. Once enough developers are interested in that same feature, and >> >> agree to spend resources on it, the burden can be shared. Having a sandbox >> >> repositories with forks will make this easier. >> >> >> Areas that I personally want to see on the roadmap: >> >> * more alignment with mobile >> >> * a clean and lean low-level rendering pipeline API that would allow >> easier >> >> plugability with upcoming low-level rendering systems >> >> * extensions for Chart API >> >> >> - Johan >> >> >>
