> If you are defining "participation" as "putting back
> code", yes, you are 
> correct.  But really, how many kernel developers are
> out there in the 
> world?  I'm not expecting a huge number here.

I think that is a negative way of looking at things. It is all about 
improvements - so if there are less Solaris kernel developers the idea should 
be to create more of them and not be complacent about it. (Last I checked there 
were 1500+ routinely active  Linux kernel developers - many of them self taught 
and without a prior kernel development background - they started fixing, their 
changes were taken in and they were not bogged down by bureaucracy )

> 
> But we define participation as, well, participating.
>  Over 40 
> niversities are using OpenSolaris in their
> curriculum.  Students are 
> learning on OpenSolaris, using it, experimenting with
> it, developing on 
> it.  Are they participating? Absolutely. 
> 
Which of the above was not possible when there was no OpenSolaris but Sun was 
allowing downloads of Solaris for free? I don't think that's the point here - 
"Source" in "OpenSource" is the key. We continue to ignore that.

> I will never expect a huge number of people
> developing OpenSolaris 
> itself. 
I would consider that as a wasted opportunity and potential. If that is your 
level of confidence then I have to wonder why did Sun open it in first place  
and named it "Open"Solaris? What you said contradicts the definition of open in 
free software parlance - specifically because you discount collaboration and 
improvement and block freedom of use - they way I want it, where I want it.

Sun could have just made the binary download available and people who need it 
may have used it. Why the source? 

> Where I see the potential volume is with
> people developing apps 
> for OpenSolaris, and people using distros based upon
> OpenSolaris.  All 
> of those people are participating.
>
Again some of those folks are complaining about much of the same things that I 
did.
(see elsewhere on the forum). I think there wasn't a need for the source to be 
made open if the idea was just people developing apps and creating distros on 
top of what Sun provides. That you believe no one else can contribute in a 
significant way to OpenSolaris kernel then I have to tell you that you are 
wrong. There are plenty of talented developers outside of Sun.  Significant 
innovations happened outside of Sun and will continue to happen. And Solaris as 
a mainstream operating platform is nowhere near done - lot still needs to be 
done and I don't see that happening without active community involvement.

> If you want it to go faster, then participate.
>  Stephen Lau posted a 
> ood way to help a couple of days ago.  Put your money
> where your mouth 
> is.  Sorry to be blunt, but really......
> 
Sorry but I already pointed out a key thing before - people are not going to 
participate unless you give them a right platform, unless they feel owning and 
driving the changes. People are not going to work for Sun (disguised as 
community) according to Sun's rules, for Sun's purpose.

So please open up everything and make it GPLv3 (I believe GPL2/3 will continue 
to be the most favorite licenses in open source community for variety of 
reasons) and you will have people taking the source and putting it out in open 
and doing their things. That will bring in innovation, progress and significant 
changes. Most Sun people think Sun's is the only one, true way - that is wrong. 
That's where the conflict really is. That's where the community dissatisfaction 
really is.

Sun can choose what, if anything, to take back whatever they like from the 
community. Sun can continue to enforce their processes, directions, quality 
etc. internally on their own tree. That way Sun won't have to be burdened with 
doing everything. (Sun has proved that it cannot make changes fast enough while 
not hurting their business interests). People can step up at a far higher level 
and do amazing things efficiently if they feel like they are owning and driving 
it.

Don't stop just with _you_ can do it - Think why people are not doing it. Think 
what could be done in order to get people to do it.  Otherwise it just becomes 
very narrow and very limited and isn't much of an achievement at all.

But I take it that Sun isn't interested in this kind of thing at all apart from 
using community as a vehicle to get to Sun's goals. That ain't gonna work.
 
 
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