On 11/14/2017 06:21 PM, Erik McCormick wrote:
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Blair Bethwaite
<blair.bethwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all - please note this conversation has been split variously across
-dev and -operators.

One small observation from the discussion so far is that it seems as
though there are two issues being discussed under the one banner:
1) maintain old releases for longer
2) do stable releases less frequently

It would be interesting to understand if the people who want longer
maintenance windows would be helped by #2.


I would like to hear from people who do *not* want #2 and why not.
What are the benefits of 6 months vs. 1 year? I have heard objections
in the hallway track, but I have struggled to retain the rationale for
more than 10 seconds. I think this may be more of a religious
discussion that could take a while though.

One point is maintenance burden. Everything that has to be deprecated and removed will have to be kept for twice more time in the worst case.

The second point is that contributors, from my experience, don't like waiting many months for their shiny feature to get released. That will increase pressure on the teams in the end of every release to get everything in - or it will have to wait 1 year.

Note that both points apply even if you do "less-stable" releases between stable ones.


#1 is something we can act on right now with the eventual goal of
being able to skip releases entirely. We are addressing the
maintenance of the old issue right now. As we get farther down the
road of fast-forward upgrade tooling, then we will be able to please
those wishing for a slower upgrade cadence, and those that want to
stay on the bleeding edge simultaneously.

-Erik

On 14 November 2017 at 09:25, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> wrote:
Excerpts from Bogdan Dobrelya's message of 2017-11-14 17:08:31 +0100:
The concept, in general, is to create a new set of cores from these
groups, and use 3rd party CI to validate patches. There are lots of
details to be worked out yet, but our amazing UC (User Committee) will
be begin working out the details.

What is the most worrying is the exact "take over" process. Does it mean that
the teams will give away the +2 power to a different team? Or will our (small)
stable teams still be responsible for landing changes? If so, will they have to
learn how to debug 3rd party CI jobs?

Generally, I'm scared of both overloading the teams and losing the control over
quality at the same time :) Probably the final proposal will clarify it..

The quality of backported fixes is expected to be a direct (and only?)
interest of those new teams of new cores, coming from users and
operators and vendors. The more parties to establish their 3rd party

We have an unhealthy focus on "3rd party" jobs in this discussion. We
should not assume that they are needed or will be present. They may be,
but we shouldn't build policy around the assumption that they will. Why
would we have third-party jobs on an old branch that we don't have on
master, for instance?

checking jobs, the better proposed changes communicated, which directly
affects the quality in the end. I also suppose, contributors from ops
world will likely be only struggling to see things getting fixed, and
not new features adopted by legacy deployments they're used to maintain.
So in theory, this works and as a mainstream developer and maintainer,
you need no to fear of losing control over LTS code :)

Another question is how to not block all on each over, and not push
contributors away when things are getting awry, jobs failing and merging
is blocked for a long time, or there is no consensus reached in a code
review. I propose the LTS policy to enforce CI jobs be non-voting, as a
first step on that way, and giving every LTS team member a core rights
maybe? Not sure if that works though.

I'm not sure what change you're proposing for CI jobs and their voting
status. Do you mean we should make the jobs non-voting as soon as the
branch passes out of the stable support period?

Regarding the review team, anyone on the review team for a branch
that goes out of stable support will need to have +2 rights in that
branch. Otherwise there's no point in saying that they're maintaining
the branch.

Doug

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--
Cheers,
~Blairo

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