On 26/09/18 10:27 PM, Qiming Teng wrote:

Due to many reasons, I cannot join you on this event, but I do like to
leave some comments here for references.

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:27:29AM +0800, Rico Lin wrote:
*How about a forum in Berlin for discussing autoscaling integration (as a
long-term goal) in OpenStack?*

First of all, there is nothing called "auto-scaling" in my mind and
"auto" is most of the time a scary word to users. It means the service
or tool is hiding some details from the users when it is doing something
without human intervention. There are cases where this can be useful,
there are also many other cases the service or tool is messing up things
to a state difficult to recover from. What matters most is the usage
scenarios we support. I don't think users care that much how project
teams are organized.

Yeah, I mostly agree with you, and in fact I often use the term 'scaling group' to encompass all of the different types of groups in Heat. Our job is to provide an API that is legible to external tools to increase and decrease the size of the group. The 'auto' part is created by connecting it with other services, whether they be OpenStack services like Aodh or Monasca, monitoring services provided by the user themselves, or just manual invocation.

(BTW people from the HA-clustering world have a _very_ negative reaction to Senlin's use of the term 'cluster'... there is no perfect terminology.)

Hi all, as we start to discuss how can we join develop from Heat and Senlin
as we originally planned when we decided to fork Senlin from Heat long time

IMO the biggest issues we got now are we got users using autoscaling in
both services, appears there is a lot of duplicated effort, and some great
enhancement didn't exist in another service.
As a long-term goal (from the beginning), we should try to join development
to sync functionality, and move users to use Senlin for autoscaling. So we
should start to review this goal, or at least we should try to discuss how
can we help users without break or enforce anything.

The original plan, iirc, was to make sure Senlin resources are supported
in Heat,

This happened.

and we will gradually fade out the existing 'AutoScalingGroup'
and related resource types in Heat.

That's almost impossible to do without breaking existing users.

I have no clue since when Heat is
interested in "auto-scaling" again.

It's something that Rico and I have been discussing - it turns out that Heat still has a *lot* of users running very important stuff on Heat scaling group code which, as you know, is burdened by a lot of technical debt.

What will be great if we can build common library cross projects, and use
that common library in both projects, make sure we have all improvement
implemented in that library, finally to use Senlin from that from that
library call in Heat autoscaling group. And in long-term, we gonna let all
user use more general way instead of multiple ways but generate huge
confusing for users.

The so called "auto-scaling" is always a solution, built by
orchestrating many moving parts across the infrastructure. In some
cases, you may have to install agents into VMs for workload metering.

Totally agree, but...

am not convinced this can be done using a library approach.

Clearly there are _some_ parts that could in principle be shared. (I added some comments to the etherpad to clarify what I think Rico was referring to.)

It seems to me that there's value in discussing it together rather than just working completely independently, even if the outcome of that discussion is that

*As an action, I propose we have a forum in Berlin and sync up all effort
from both teams to plan for idea scenario design. The forum submission [1]
ended at 9/26.*
Also would benefit from both teams to start to think about how they can
modulize those functionalities for easier integration in the future.

 From some Heat PTG sessions, we keep bring out ideas on how can we improve
current solutions for Autoscaling. We should start to talk about will it
make sense if we combine all group resources into one, and inherit from it
for other resources (ideally gonna deprecate rest resource types). Like we
can do Batch create/delete in Resource Group, but not in ASG. We definitely
got some unsynchronized works inner Heat, and cross Heat and Senlin.

Totally agree with you on this. We should strive to minimize the
technologies users have to master when they have a need.

+1 - to expand on Rico's example, we have at least 3 completely separate implementations of batching, each supporting different actions:

Heat AutoscalingGroup: updates only
Heat ResourceGroup: create or update
Senlin Batch Policy: updates only

and users are asking for batch delete as well. This is clearly an area where technical debt from duplicate implementations is making it hard to deliver value to users.


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