-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Hertweck wrote: > Pascal Bleser wrote: >> [...] >> So, 10.0 has been spreading widely, 10.1 is about to be released after >> a very long and tedious development cycle (I guess AJ and the YaST2 >> developers now know what it must feel like when a woman gives birth >> after 20 hours spent in a maternity room ;)) > > Well, I think they're better off because they're being paid for it and > they don't have to care about their baby for the next 18 years... ;-)
+1 ;) >> [...] >> With the exception of houghi's DVD script, almost all the mails in the >> past two months on the lists have been about "my soundcard doesn't >> work", "Xen doesn't work", and of course "zypp/zmd problem". >> While that's fine on opensuse-factory or suse-linux-e, it's not on >> this list, and there hasn't been anything else, at least not as far as >> I can remember. > > This is a general problem on mailing lists and it won't go away as long > as people on this list really answer all of the (in principle) OT > emails. It needs combined effort to achieve a solution. Yep. And it doesn't require being rude nor impolite. We've had that topic before on this list, and basically, AFAICR the outcome was: what's the point of always answering they should go to another list - if we reply, we can also give them an answer. While it isn't wrong, you can notice that when you reply to a query like that, it ends up in a thread of 6 mails at least, 30 mails at worse. So that's still traffic that doesn't belong to this list. The question is: if we kept up the effort of guiding people with such questions on another list, would we have more discussions and drive about community-centered topics or not ? I think we would, I somehow got the feeling the list was kind of drowned by support questions. But I might as well be completely wrong ;) > Coming back to the original subject, I have a simple question: what is > "the community"? Is somebody part of "the openSUSE community" because > (i) he creates RPM packages for SUSE Linux and serves other users, or > (ii) he is an interested power user of SUSE Linux (or an interested > beginner?), or (iii) he writes emails on the opensuse mailing list, or > (iv) he helps others by answering SUSE-related questions in forums or on > mailing lists, or (v) he submits bug reports for SUSE products, or (vi) > <add whatever you like here>?? You wrote "we, the community" in the > subject of this email - do you think I am part of it? That's a very good question, and while I can't speak up for anybody else, my answer would be: any of those points. Being part of the community is not just using SUSE Linux, but also feeling committed to it, in a sense of wanting to participate into the joined effort such an open source project represents. And any of the items you wrote above qualifies wrt that. "Just take no give" doesn't make you part of the community. At least that's my very personal understanding of it. > From my point of view, a (SUSE) community might be all of what has been > mentioned above (all people share interest in SUSE Linux and the > openSUSE project) although some people might be more active than others, > no doubt (sorry, but some people have to work hard and can't afford to > spend the whole day playing with SUSE Linux betas or writing emails to > the opensuse mailing list ;-)). Unfortunately, I get the impression that I'm working 8 hours every day and still commit myself to spend a few more building a lot of packages, amongst others - which doesn't mean that I "expect" others to do the same. Why do I do it ? Might sound silly, but I do it for the people who use SUSE Linux, to save them work and from the complexity of building software from source. And also for the good of my favorite Linux distribution, in general. (not that I'm being against other Linux distributions or OSS efforts, I'm also one of the organization staff members of FOSDEM) I mean, the very essence of OpenSource and Free Software projects, at least from the "philosophical" point of view, is to contribute to a joined effort, with the time and skills you can dedicate to it. And BTW, that absolutely wasn't to push my example forward.. just look at Eberhard Moenke, he's breathing SUSE 24h a day ;D Just like many others. But that still doesn't give us something we might be lacking at the moment... could it be leadership ? > others here on this mailing list have a different opinion about that > subject and a very restricted definition of "the community" (e.g. the > inner secret circle actively developing the SUSE Linux distribution or > some important SUSE-related software projects). The discussion about the You're putting your finger in a wound that IMO has its cure in communication. That's not only lacking as far as we, non-Novell employees, are concerned but also from e.g. the SUSE staff. Historically, SUSE has been developed in a rather closed environment, communication with users and committers happening on a secret path ;) Nevertheless, they're very aware of the problem and are working on it. That's certainly the kind of thing that takes time, and a lot of progress has been made already since the opensuse.org launch, with people like AJ, henne, cthiel, skh, darix, Marcus Meissner and several others pushing internally for more and more openness and integration with the community (as of non-Novell employees). I absolutely don't want to criticize them on that, it's a big effort and it really takes time. And of course, it's also up to us to contact them directly, not waiting for them to make things happen. I'd really like to see us push some ideas, discussions and initiatives without them, to see up to where we can go, and possibly what tools we are lacking to make it work. > opensuse.org email address points also in this direction (Or will > "everybody" get an opensuse.org email address? Very unlikely.). From my That's what we'd have to discuss. I'd say active committers should be able to get an @opensuse.org email address. Who is going to decide who's active and who's not ? Firstly, being on this list is already a good sign ;D and secondly, several of our questions are answered by some form of leadership (oops.. yep.. the word is out again). > point of view, for instance a beginner can also be a very valuable part > of the community although he might "only" report things that are > difficult to understand or software that is difficult to use, etc. I Sure, reporting bugs is taking part into the effort. > think it takes some time for a community to grow (together) and one > cannot enforce something like a community. The openSUSE project is quite > young, it just takes some time to get everything in place... While it cannot be enforced, it always takes a number of committed people to drive a community, to push it forward and take responsibility. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEX61fr3NMWliFcXcRArE9AJwI3GMEjWfEiyt/skhGPcdT5X/ROACggNSp /mH8vc2hE96deNvdHSr1TGI= =OVq4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
