On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote:
> Joseph,
>
> Generally, I agree, but...
>
> >> I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but
> >> if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to
> >> the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart,
> >> and a dump).
> >
> >And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too.
>
> Agree. But most major customers avoid "semi-open" products because of the
> perception (right or wrong) that they can't purchase support, even if they
> have money to burn.
Sure. Is Orion "semi-open" now? Because I've never seen anything of the
sort, and I think I would have by now...
> I have argued that the orion-interest response is generally more accurate
> (than BEA, IBM & Sun) because the big players must hide their embarassing
> flaws from the competition. This is why I believe Oracle MAY (not for
> sure! No flames please!) put pressure on Ironflare to be less forthcoming
> about internal flaws.
Sure, I can understand this -- good thing we have orionsupport.com, which
isn't affiliated with Ironflare. This is why I've never been willing to
advertise anything on orionsupport, and why I'm not directly affiliated in
any way with Ironflare - because I want the freedom to some day post
something like "Orion totally sucks in area XYZ" (not mentioning anything
like JMS, for example, am I?) without worrying about receiving a warning
from the Swedish Mafia.
> >> Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely
> >> respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed?
> >>
> >> Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support.
> >
> >Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have
> >support networks in place...
> >
> "The buck stops here" sign is on Karl's and Magnus' desk, right? I hope
> they don't usually ride in the same car together all time. :)
Well, I didn't know they HAD desks - I can see Satan doing all his work on
a futon for some reason - but at this point, we don't know how much
responsibility Oracle has taken. *shrug* We'll see.
> Stuck in the asylum,
> Jay
>
> At 03:42 PM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote:
> >
> >> Nathan,
> >>
> >> A lot of what you're saying is true. I acknowledge that Orion is
> >> relatively fast and has some great features (like auto-reconfigure), but I
> >> recall that Orion used to claim that it was the fastest J2EE product (or
> >> something like that), then had to remove that claim from the
> >> orionserver.com site (I think BEA challenged the claim).
> >
> >No, BEA didn't challenge the claim. BEA refuses anyone (IBM, etc.) to
> >publish performance specs for comparison purposes. The result was that
> >Orion couldn't say "We did this in X, and BEA did it in Y." Orion is
> >hardly unique in this.
> >
> >> Also, one of the first questions I get asked when recommending software for
> >> clients is about support. It's probably the primary reason why major
> >> systems do not rely on open products, or "semi-open" products like Orion.
> >
> >Or Oracle... but wait, that might make the Oracle deal a win for Orion
> >users.
> >
> >> Yes, Karl and Magnus built a fabulous product, but where's the support
> >> (documentation, help desk, etc)?
> >
> >I've done well without it.
> >
> >> I am not applauding the support for WebLogic, WebsFear, IPlanit, etc, but
> >> if I report a problem with WebLogic to BEA, eventually it will filter to
> >> the gurus, who will respond (usually they ask for a reconfigure, restart,
> >> and a dump).
> >
> >And usually if people know your problem, they'll get to it here, too.
> >
> >> Who will handle this for Orion/Oracle? Karl and Magnus? They rarely
> >> respond now, so don't you think they could get even more overwhelmed?
> >>
> >> Please, point me to where Ellison talked about support.
> >
> >Heh, you haven't LOOKED at Oracle much, have you? They *already* have
> >support networks in place...
> >
> >
> >> Jay
> >>
> >> At 09:32 AM 6/11/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >On a different note concerning the Oracle deal:
> >> >
> >> >I wasn't at JavaOne, but I've been reading all about it on the web. One
> >> >news story that I've seen a lot about is Larry Ellison and Bill Coleman's
> >> >little fight. Oracle has put Orion in the big leagues... I mean, Karl
> could
> >> >have produced all sorts of documentation that said "Orion is better then
> >> >Weblogic," but BEA would have paid it no attention. However, when Oracle
> >> >says "Oracle is better then Weblogic," BEA certainly takes notice!
> >> >
> >> >I consider this a great victory for Ironflare, the J2EE community, and
> every
> >> >single young person hacking away in his garage. This proves it--a few
> >> >talented and committed developers can accomplish anything they set their
> >> >minds too. I think Larry Ellison said it best, when, at JavaOne, he said
> >> >"We have thrown out literally all of our old Java code. The reason we
> threw
> >> >away all of our old J2EE implementations is we had to build a high
> >> >performance, scaleable version of J2EE. We think that this is a huge
> >> >breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single
> >> >biggest threat to Java, which is performance."
> >> >
> >> >And we, all of us on this list, know what Larry Ellison was really
> saying...
> >> >
> >> >"We replaced all our old Java code with the code from a small Swedish
> >> >company called Ironflare. The reason we threw away all of our old J2EE
> >> >implementations was that, plain and simple, these two Swedish guys are
> >> >studs, and had managed to build a high performance, scaleable version of
> >> >J2EE when we had largely failed internally. We think that this is a huge
> >> >breakthrough for the entire Java community because it addresses the single
> >> >biggest threat to Java, which is performance."
> >> >
> >> > -LARRY ELLISON
> >> > CEO, ORACLE
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Now, that is sweet!
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------
> >Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
> >
> >
> >
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
