Licensing of Flash player has caused many threads on various forums (the swf2exe ones that is).
It is not as simple or clear cut as you think, but this Air2Exe product, Shu, appears to me to fall in the same bracket as Zinc re runtime redistribution. Anyway, licensing seems off topic. Shu seems pretty cool to me. Changes the landscape somewhat in desktop flash/flex based apps again! On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 4:52 PM, sLangeberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ah yeah, the player distribution is expressly allowed: > > http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ > > And looks like you just need green light from Adobe to AIR out your app: > > http://www.adobe.com/products/air/runtime_distribution_faq.html > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Jethro Grassie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Yeah well, same applies to flash player and swf2exe tools doesnt it! > > Hasnt stopped those tools. > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 4:33 PM, sLangeberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > Man, Adobe is allowing distribution of their runtime in this manner, > > > huh? Guess I never read the licensing / restrictions! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Jethro Grassie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Take a look at Shu. > > > > > > > > http://shu-player.com > > > > > > > > Seems to address many of AIR shortcomings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Jethro Grassie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > As per Samuel Agesilas's comments.... > > > > > > > > > > That is exactly why I think AIR is going to take off. > > > > > It brings us some of the benefits of both online and offline in a > > > > > very easy to use technology. > > > > > Sure its not a perfect solution _yet_, but it is still very new > > > > > and we can expect it to develop very quickly into something very > > > > > usable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 7:20 PM, Samuel Agesilas < > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well mate, > > > > > > > > > > > > The desktop is FAR from dead. Most of the apps I use on my Mac > > > > > > are > > > > > > desktop apps. Both for professional and recreational. There is a > > > > > > huge > > > > > > market for software that cannot be made into a web app. Imagine > > > > > > if > > > > > > Ableton was a live application, how many night clubs you know > > > > > > are > > > > > > equipped > > > > > > with broadband wifi. In my case I could have never written > > > > > > Saffron > > > > > > into a web app and still maintain the level of quality and user > > > > > > experience I wanted. > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact is that nothing beats instant on! And desktop > > > > > > applications > > > > > > give you that. No sever waits or downloads or caching issues > > > > > > or none of that. I think the trend is going to be towards more > > > > > > rich > > > > > > client desktop app's that can connect the web but do not depend > > > > > > implicitly on an internet > > > > > > connection. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 15, 2008, at 4:39 AM, Cedric Muller wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Failing examples: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -....Bring merchants to the desktop, and start to sell on the > > > > > > desktop > > > > > > > (IS THAT A JOKE ???) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - then, there is AOL.... "With our Adobe AIR application, we > > > > > > can > > > > > > > reach communities of users with compelling, free content > > > > > > available > > > > > > > from AOL" (They now acknowledge they cannot reach communities > > > > > > of > > > > > > > users online ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - EBAY: The result: people can experience the world's largest > > > > > > online > > > > > > > marketplace and engage with eBay services using a compact, > > > > > > intuitive > > > > > > > desktop application. > > > > > > > Wow really ? So what about revamping the website instead of > > > > > > > developping a new interface ? In what sense does AIR feel > > > > > > right ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The NASDAQ example: Quotes are everywhere, on your mobile on > > > > > > your > > > > > > > tv on your paper on your face, but from now on, INVESTORS > > > > > > (gasp!) can > > > > > > > follow quotes on their desktop (and this has been done > > > > > > thousand > > > > > > > times, and this hasn't helped any investor :) ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really really sorry, I am just a flash programmer, sites and > > > > > > > applications, but I cannot feel the marketing crap here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if anyone at Adobe realized how old skool is the > > > > > > desktop, > > > > > > > and how fast everything will move in the next 5 years ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cedric (ok ok, I am anti-air, but still pro flash platform) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ps: the AIR symbol is fun (I see 'empty space') > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I am quite intrigued by the hype and trendy comments AIR is > > > > > > receiving > > > > > > >> (build with Flash, build with Flex, build with AJAX, build > > > > > > with > > > > > > >> Legos, build with your cat, do a Tour, do some Zigs, and > > > > > > other > > > > > > >> Zags) .,... I can count on the fingers of my hand the Good > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> Functionnal AIR apps that are around ... and all the people > > > > > > >> applausing just because the others are > > > > > > >> Zinc is just a hell to make it work, but then it just works > > > > > > and IS > > > > > > >> functionnal. They don't fancy around and such. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Now Adobe asking for feedback and such ... :) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The idea to find Hacks to a 1.0 version is soooo cheap... > > > > > > makes me > > > > > > >> wonder what were those people thinking ? (They must have > > > > > > thought > > > > > > >> something like: bring the browser to the desktop, but Nah! > > > > > > The > > > > > > >> browser overtakes the desktop, so why would be have light > > > > > > apps > > > > > > >> running on our desktop ? no sense at all) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Really ? I am fed up of 'happy and glowing professionals' > > > > > > being over > > > > > > >> optimistic on some overall not interesting initiative > > > > > > (actually: we > > > > > > >> are all playing the idiots because we don't have any clue, we > > > > > > just > > > > > > >> want to do technology and earn money, so we follow, so we > > > > > > >> follow, ...). Do your homework, do some yoga (I need such > > > > > > right > > > > > > >> now :P ) and bring better things than just doing over hyped > > > > > > >> nonsense.... > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> AIR ist Rad! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Cedric > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I totally agree. Without the ability to launch external > > > > > > apps AIR > > > > > > >>> will have a hard time becoming more than a novelty. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> By the way, you can also use SQLLite with MDM. > > > > > > >>> http://www.thecodezone.com/downloads/sqlite.php > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ------------------------------- > > > > > > >>> Iman Khabazian > > > > > > >>> Managing Director, iMAN IT > > > > > > >>> 949.231.8042 > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >>> www.imanit.com > > > > > > >>> www.scuge.com > > > > > > >>> www.imanit.com/blog > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On Feb 13, 2008 2:45 PM, Keith Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>> Even as a hack, it is not pure AIR. It requires installing > > > > > > and > > > > > > >>> running another application on your machine. The Artemis > > > > > > project > > > > > > >>> does something similar. I totally agree with what Sam that > > > > > > this > > > > > > >>> was a really poor decision. I think most of us would have > > > > > > gladly > > > > > > >>> left the SQLLite stuff behind in favor of this. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Keith Peters > > > > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On Feb 13, 2008, at 5:38 PM, Iman Khabazian wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> has anyone tried the hack? > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2008/01/17/commandproxy-net-air- > > > > > > >>>> integration-proof-of-concept/ > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -Iman > > > > > > >>>> ------------------------------- > > > > > > >>>> Iman Khabazian > > > > > > >>>> Managing Director, iMAN IT > > > > > > >>>> 949.231.8042 > > > > > > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >>>> www.imanit.com > > > > > > >>>> www.scuge.com > > > > > > >>>> www.imanit.com/blog > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> On Feb 13, 2008 2:31 PM, Samuel Agesilas < > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> Yea it is a major, fudge up by Adobe. Essentially with AIR > > > > > > Adobe > > > > > > >>>> build the Ferrari of desktop app development, but decided > > > > > > to slash > > > > > > >>>> all the tires and put sugar in the gas tank when they > > > > > > decided to > > > > > > >>>> seriously hamper AIR by not allowing calls apps to launch. > > > > > > Talk > > > > > > >>>> about a dumb and stupid decision. and I don't believe Adobe > > > > > > knows > > > > > > >>>> how crucial of a feature that is! For example, I had a > > > > > > client come > > > > > > >>>> to us to develop a UI for an audio processing software > > > > > > project. > > > > > > >>>> For the UI we looked at JavaFX ( which is not quite ready > > > > > > ), Java, > > > > > > >>>> QT and Adobe AIR. AIR hit all of the points and the client > > > > > > was > > > > > > >>>> ready to roll with AIR except for that crucial fact of not > > > > > > being > > > > > > >>>> able to launch external apps. That was the deal breaker and > > > > > > the > > > > > > >>>> client walked away from AIR development and decided to go > > > > > > with QT. > > > > > > >>>> It's a shame to because that particular project was perfect > > > > > > for > > > > > > >>>> Flash + AIR. If anyone at Adobe is reading this, PLEASE > > > > > > stop > > > > > > >>>> handicapping your products and start trusting your > > > > > > developer > > > > > > >>>> community. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> my two cents. > > > > > > >>>> -sam > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> On Feb 8, 2008, at 6:18 AM, slangeberg wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yeah, you're right. Not being able to make system calls / > > > > > > launch > > > > > > >>>>> apps IS a major shortcoming of AIR, at this point. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Here's an official Adobe statement, as of June: > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> src: > > > > > > http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm? > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > catid=641&threadid=1298770&STARTPAGE=2&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Thank you everyone who has contributed to this thread. My > > > > > > name is > > > > > > >>>>> Rob Christensen and I'm a product manager on Adobe AIR. > > > > > > I'd like > > > > > > >>>>> to provide some clarity on this topic, but also invite you > > > > > > to > > > > > > >>>>> share additional thoughts. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> The primary reason that AIR 1.0 does not include support > > > > > > for > > > > > > >>>>> launching native applications originates from a founding > > > > > > design > > > > > > >>>>> decision/philosophy. Applications that do not depend on > > > > > > other > > > > > > >>>>> applications to be installed result in a better user > > > > > > experience. > > > > > > >>>>> Our goal with AIR has been to deliver a runtime that > > > > > > delivers > > > > > > >>>>> applications consistently across operating systems. Please > > > > > > note > > > > > > >>>>> that this doesn't mean we're right nor that we might not > > > > > > change > > > > > > >>>>> our minds on this. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> We'd like to hear what you think on this topic. It's > > > > > > helpful if > > > > > > >>>>> you can let us know what you're trying to build. The more > > > > > > >>>>> specific you can be, the more helpful it is to our team. > > > > > > Please > > > > > > >>>>> reply to this thread or send us a note through our > > > > > > feedback form. > > > > > > >>>>> This form will send a message directly to our development > > > > > > and > > > > > > >>>>> product management team. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Feedback for (Adobe AIR) > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.adobe.com/go/wish/ > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> As with any design decision, there's plenty of opportunity > > > > > > to > > > > > > >>>>> debate the topic and this is something we continue to > > > > > > discuss > > > > > > >>>>> even internally. The major disadvantage is that it's much > > > > > > more > > > > > > >>>>> difficult to take advantage of existing code libraries or > > > > > > launch > > > > > > >>>>> other native applications. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> At the same time, one advantage to the current design is > > > > > > that > > > > > > >>>>> when you distribute an application, you do not need to > > > > > > say, "This > > > > > > >>>>> is a really great application, but make sure you have > > > > > > Microsoft > > > > > > >>>>> Windows (or OSX) installed as well as Microsoft Word (or > > > > > > >>>>> Photoshop or some other native product) to really take > > > > > > advantage > > > > > > >>>>> of this application." > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Again, we may revisit this decision in the future and as > > > > > > with any > > > > > > >>>>> 1.0, you almost always come to reconsider your initial > > > > > > design > > > > > > >>>>> goals. There are some interesting options here such as the > > > > > > one > > > > > > >>>>> discussed earlier of launching the default application for > > > > > > a > > > > > > >>>>> specific file type. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Stuartc11: It is possible to launch a web browser by the > > > > > > way and > > > > > > >>>>> some of the sample applications have code that that > > > > > > demonstrate > > > > > > >>>>> how to do this. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks, > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> - Rob > > > > > > >>>>> Product Manager, Adobe AIR > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> -Scott > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> PS: Zinc blows holes in the ozone. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> On Feb 8, 2008 5:41 AM, Cedric Muller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> Actually, I was able to launch VLC with Zinc (not Zinc > > > > > > specific, > > > > > > >>>>> but > > > > > > >>>>> it does manage activex) and pass the HD streams to VLC > > > > > > >>>>> now, I am looking at a splitted screen with 4 HD streams, > > > > > > all > > > > > > >>>>> totally > > > > > > >>>>> fluid. > > > > > > >>>>> Ok ok, I have a tough graphic card, but my tests so far > > > > > > indicate > > > > > > >>>>> that > > > > > > >>>>> there is plenty of margin. > > > > > > >>>>> Moreover, with VLC I can load in almost any video type > > > > > > (even > > > > > > >>>>> FLVs)... > > > > > > >>>>> though i am doing an internal check, and if video is FLV I > > > > > > >>>>> stream it > > > > > > >>>>> with Flash... > > > > > > >>>>> The app I am building is quite technical, and clients' > > > > > > constraints > > > > > > >>>>> are very high (regarding HD (and full hd) Streaming). To > > > > > > be > > > > > > >>>>> honest, > > > > > > >>>>> it isn't a desktop application, more like a 'computer app' > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Cedric > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Not to be obtuse, but can you stream HD video with Zinc? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Does streaming HD video establish the validity of a > > > > > > desktop app? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Anyhow, you can stream video with Flash Media Server to > > > > > > the flash > > > > > > >>>>>> player (AIR). Probably Red5 too. Right? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Feb 8, 2008 2:02 AM, Cedric Muller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> yes works well, but quite not a true desktop app: how > > > > > > would you > > > > > > >>>>>> stream Full HD video with AIR ? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> yeah, and just to be the rah rah boy - AIR rocks. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> fine, shoot me, but it *works* well > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Feb 7, 2008 7:33 PM, Arnoud Bos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>> Try screenweaver haxe (swhx) if you are not afraid of > > > > > > >>>>> command line > > > > > > >>>>>>> tools. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Works great! > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> And it's opensource (this is an open source list, > > > > > > right?) > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Arnoud > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:osflash- > > > > > > >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens bean tickler > > > > > > >>>>>>> Verzonden: donderdag 7 februari 2008 23:25 > > > > > > >>>>>>> Aan: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>> Onderwerp: [osflash] MDM Zinc v3 rant > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Sad sad sad. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Too long have I and almost everyone I know suffered with > > > > > > this > > > > > > >>>>> poor > > > > > > >>>>>>> product and its predecessors. 2.5 buggy buggy buggy. V3 > > > > > > beta, > > > > > > >>>>> buggy > > > > > > >>>>>>> but fine, BETA. V3 RELEASE, same as BETA, not one bug > > > > > > fixed from > > > > > > >>>>>>> what I can tell and they have ditched tons of the > > > > > > functionality > > > > > > >>>>>>> they had in 2.5!!! > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Why oh why do we bother??? Well, at one point they were > > > > > > the > > > > > > >>>>> best of > > > > > > >>>>>>> a bad bunch with shed loads of commands and slick > > > > > > marketing. > > > > > > >>>>>>> However, I feel the competitors have overtaken them. > > > > > > Just > > > > > > >>>>> look at > > > > > > >>>>>>> the likes of Janus (a new but reliable tool) and SWF > > > > > > studio. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> For me I would have loved to have stayed with SWF Studio > > > > > > but > > > > > > >>>>> they > > > > > > >>>>>>> had no handheld or Mac output. Janus is my new favorite > > > > > > as it > > > > > > >>>>> has > > > > > > >>>>>>> yet to cause me an embarrassing client crash and has Mac > > > > > > and > > > > > > >>>>> Linux > > > > > > >>>>>>> output coming up). But wow, I feel soo dumb for ever > > > > > > buying > > > > > > >>>>> Zinc!! > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Every negative post on their "community" forum gets > > > > > > deleted, > > > > > > >>>>> they > > > > > > >>>>>>> are now even checking posts _before_ they go live. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Sorry for the rant. But guessing this post wont be > > > > > > deleted!!! > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>>>> [ JPG ] > > > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>>> : : ) Scott > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Helping your grandma on the interweb > > > > > > >>>>>> at: http://blog.criticalpile.com > > > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>> : : ) Scott > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Helping your grandma on the interweb > > > > > > >>>>> at: http://blog.criticalpile.com > > > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >>> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >>> [email protected] > > > > > > >>> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >> osflash mailing list > > > > > > >> [email protected] > > > > > > >> http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > osflash mailing list > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > osflash mailing list > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > osflash mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > : : ) Scott > > > > > > Helping your grandma on the interweb > > > at: http://blog.criticalpile.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > osflash mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > osflash mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > > > > > > > -- > : : ) Scott > > Helping your grandma on the interweb > at: http://blog.criticalpile.com > > _______________________________________________ > osflash mailing list > [email protected] > http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org > >
_______________________________________________ osflash mailing list [email protected] http://osflash.org/mailman/listinfo/osflash_osflash.org
