<laughing>
-- Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates 312-280-7838 (mobile) http://MichaelHerman.com http://OpenSpaceWorld.org On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Phelim McDermott <phe...@mac.com> wrote: > Dear Michael and Chris, > > Three days after doing WOSonOS on the wednesday I stepped back in the > saddle and played the Comedy Store.. Over the years I am well used to > telling jokes to comics. Just for the record I can assure you it's much > easier than opening space to the spacenics! > > :) > > Phelim x > > ________________________________ > > I generally pick up emails only at the beginning and end of the working > day. I am currently aiming to respond the following day. If it is urgent > please call me on 07956 187298. > _____________________________________ > > www.improbable.co.uk > @openspacer > > > On 23 Oct 2012, at 18:26, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> > wrote: > > > > -- > > Michael Herman > Michael Herman Associates > 312-280-7838 (mobile) > > http://MichaelHerman.com > http://OpenSpaceWorld.org > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Phelim McDermott <phe...@mac.com> wrote: > >> Some thoughts Michael, >> >> >> On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:43, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> >> wrote: >> > > > >> >> All of which makes me wonder how many "osonos" events we've really had. >> What if we did count them up and start numbering the as we go forward, as >> ALL having been descended from the HHO-convened "originals." And what if >> we agreed that, in the main, the clearly visible and open heart of any >> osonos was a chunk of space and time where it ran "by the book" and if you >> don't see it in the user's guide, then you don't see it in the room, >> either? Wouldn't have to be the whole event, but there could be a >> distinction between "this is what we do because we're excited, creative >> people and this is what we do because it's the heart of open space >> practice." >> >> >> In this discussion it would really help me if people were really clear >> about when they are making generalised suggestions or clear criticisms of >> WOSonOS 2012. (I'm not sure here if this is directed at our event. ) As >> those who weren't there could think WOSonOS 2012 twelve was an event which >> had lots of extraneous stuff added to the Open space part of the event. For >> those not there I want to make it very clear. There was nothing at the >> event which is not in the handbook perhaps the wall made of >> scotch/sellotape as we know this was a solution to the site, the principles >> being in more than one language and the break out spaces being animal >> pictures as we couldn't stick things on the floor. >> >> > sorry for the confusion, phelim... i have absolutely no comment about > wosonos 2012 specifically... never imagined anything i was saying could be > read that way cuz i wasn't there. everything i'm suggesting here is all > about all of osonos history and practice -- and all for the purpose of > asking what should happen next... not trying to fix or change anything > past. > > i don't know what happened in london, don't think anything negative or > critical of your work there on the event, and like chris says, i count you > among the relative short list of brave souls who's told jokes to comics. > maybe the trickiness of your task is better captured by calling it "doing > magic in front of magicians." the hands need to be VERY quick, indeed! > > -------------------------------- > > >> >> If the experience is one of desiring a simpler execution of the basic >> practice, then the solution is to offer to host an wosonos for yourself. >> >> >> Knowing what it is like on the UK scene I would say the solution is to >> offer an osonos now that WOSonOS has happened. This is certainly more >> possible after this years event. I doubt it would have been an immediately >> sustainable event or as attended if we hadn't been able to publicise it as >> a world event. Most of our support and income actually came from >> international streams. As it is we have not covered our costs by a >> considerable amount. If it had been an OSonOS I do not believe we w2ould >> have had the international; diversity we had. >> >> > this is what i mean about the W making a difference, in that suggests to > potential participants that this one is special. i think this has > underlying reliance on and encouragement of some people being more valuable > than others. i understand that this helps pay the bills, but the other > solution is to make the event so simple that it can't possibly lose money. > > ---------- > > > >> If, however, you're from the UK, for instance, and the UK has just >> hosted, that means you don't really have a shot at it for at least a few >> years. >> >> >> I think you now have a much better shot at running a successful OSonOS >> after what we did and I think there has been talk about this in sessions >> about the UK community. >> >> > yes... a better shot at running an osonos perhaps, but not Wosonos... > which is but once a year and keeps moving... so follow-ons are stuck with > the budget concerns you mentioned first. my question is why do we need to > twist ourselves up to make some events more special, more expensive, and > more than a simple osonos? > > ------------------ > > >> Further, if the process of choosing a host/location looks like it's >> been pre-determined (which it often does, based on past comments by various >> participants), then even if somebody like Paul was willing to host and the >> community was willing to stay in the UK for another year, he wouldn't feel >> like he had access to the process anyway. >> >> >> Everyone has access to the process of opening some space. If he wants he >> could communicate with the people who had a UK OS session and talked about >> further UK events. >> > > i'm not so interested in UK and Paul. I'm thinking about our worldwide > community practice. I was just trying to explain the dynamic. > > ------------- > > >> >> >> Finally, if the pre-determined processing of the decision, or >> pre-conversations, about the next invitation happen someplace other than in >> the event, newcomers like Paul are right to say they are excluded. >> >> >> It was made very clear at the event that if people were considering >> hosting they would be supported to do so. The "predetermined" element or >> eperception could be that if you are thinking of doing it a TWO YEAR prep >> time is definitely helpful and so it could look like people who have been >> thinking about it for a while know something you don't. >> >> > i continue to be baffled by why it would take two years to prepare for the > simplest meeting that could possibly work. osonos takes but a few hours to > organize, really... it's all the other agendas, like expanding practice in > underserved areas and growing local practice groups that take all the time. > i just wonder if it's best and most effective for these various missions > to travel in the same gathering. of course they'll never be inseparable, > but collegial learning, practice evangelization, and local practice group > development is a lot for one event to do. that's not what osonos was, it's > what it's become... but i don't think we chose this consciously. that's > why i'd like us to reflect on it a bit... yes it is what's happening, to > some extent, but is it what we want? > > --------------------------------- > > > >> With all these conditions present, it's quite possible that Thomas' three >> ways of using Two Feet only make the situation worse. When someone comes >> to the conclusion that they are stuck on the outside of the group and the >> best we can say is "Leave if you like," that would seem a recipe for a bad >> feeling -- especially once someone has made some investment to get to this >> event and might feel stuck there for the two days, trying to figure it out. >> >> >> No one has said leave if you like in fact I think people have encouraged >> Paul to engage in a conversation about his thoughts and I continue to do >> so. Please encourage him to join this discussion here via linkedin and >> facebook where he has been posting his blogs. >> >> During the process of putting together WOSonOS 2012 we were very open in >> making a number of invitations to be involved in helping us putting the >> event on. We held two, two day open space events which the UK OS community >> were invited to. During that process which definitely was not easy some >> people joined us and supported us.. others fell away. I also communicated >> to Paul before the event about how we were organising things and offered to >> meet him. That didn't happen. >> >> > as i was asked to be part of the florida group, i responded directly to > paul's postings by email. i've not heard anything back from him. i also > invited him to be part of the conversation for florida. but again, it's > not about paul. my point about "leaving" was in response to thomas' three > options, the last of which was "you can leave". which is true enough, but > i'm saying not perhaps very satisfying in some cases. > > --------------------------- > > >> I'm not trying to put words in Paul's mouth or speak for him... I'm just >> saying that it's possible that the way we invite and welcome and include >> people in wosonos conversations, including the ones about where the next >> event(s) might be held, might be ripe for review. As we go along, and get >> deeper in our own community practice and accumulate artifacts and habits, >> we start to look a lot like a traditional organization -- in the sense that >> we have an interest in stability, continuation, dependability, and such -- >> even as we are supposedly all about emergence and making it up as we go. >> >> >> Likewise I'm not sure what Paul is thinking either. I have invited him to >> join us on this list as I think Artur did as well. I do know that Paul was >> interested in opening the space for WOSonOS in his own style which is to do >> it in 2 and a half minutes. So I imagine he would think my introduction >> went on a bit! (I must do some work on that). >> >> > two and a half minutes is pretty short! i'm curious but not very excited > about what that would look like! > > ------------------------- > > >> >> Like look at our watch midway through briefing the principle that says >> "whenever it happens is the right time," the more habituated we become in >> our gathering practice, the more we depend on and add to how we do wosonos >> -- (even the W that got added a few years ago, for instance, creates >> scarcity by giving one event some "specialness" above all others that year) >> -- the more we add to our wosonos convening manual, beyond what's in the >> user's guide, the more we are potentially perceived as welcomers who aren't >> being very welcoming. >> >> >> I mentioned in my opening the importance of not seeing an OST event as >> something special and that "Wherever it happens is the right place" is a >> useful reminder of this to me about this. >> >> What if we didn't have any more Wosonos events, for instance, what if we >> just counted ALL osonos events as equal. We wouldn't necessarily celebrate >> the "20th anniversary" but could celebrate the 20th osonos and the 30th and >> 100th... without giving the one somehow decended from Harrison's original 4 >> events at dulles airport any more importance than what lisa does in san >> francisco, john does in haiti, or we've done here in chicago in the past? >> If all osonos events were allowed to be held as equal, then anyone could >> put one on the map and the only side conversations would be among old >> friends deciding where they might be able to meet up. And note, too, that >> there's nothing that says that if someone is hosting in australia, i can't >> host an full and equal peer gathering at the very same time, in chicago. >> neither event needs special W-ing, and anyone can choose between either >> gathering, and be surprised by who shows up, from how far or near. >> >> This was suggested by Paul at WOSonOS as one less thing to do. That we >> perhaps shouldn't do WOSonOS again. A part of me thinks.. It would >> certainly save a lot of work and stress. Another part says thats a bit like >> saying maybe it would be better if we didn't have any more parties! Maybe >> when it's over its over. >> >> > i guess i'm suggesting that we do one less thing... one less letter... > drop the W... when we started our globetrotting, we called it that to > notice that it was something bigger... now we could just tally up the > number of osonos events and number of cities or countries and simply report > and celebrate that. i don't think osonos is over, but i'd like to think > that it could be even bigger and more expansive and more > connected/connecting if we could drop the specialness of one annual event > (like dropping the specialness of keynote speakers, i think, and everybody > listening to all the same stuff), if we could invite more and more simple > breakouts around the world. more parties, not less! > > ---------------------------- > > >> These are things I've thought about for many years, and found few ripe >> openings to discuss, in part cuz I've not been able to attend osonos >> anywhere for some years. So I can appreciate how somebody newer to the mix >> might feel frustrated having made an investment to join and then come to >> the conclusion that we're as deep in our habits and rituals as any other >> exclusive organization. More frustrating because we always seem to say >> otherwise. Having tried at times from "within" to have these >> conversations, I can appreciate how hard it would feel from apparently "the >> outside." >> >> >> Sometimes people are on the outside because they feel excluded and >> sometimes they enjoy "the outsider" role. It has some useful things to say. >> This is an interesting topic to discuss in relation to the Law of Two Feet. >> >> > absolutely. and... if outside exists at all. hence my "apparently". > > ---------------------- > > >> >> > > > >> >> >> What if....? >> >> >> Yep what if? >> > > that's what i want to find out! <grin> > > > >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Herman >> Michael Herman Associates >> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >> >> http://MichaelHerman.com >> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Thomas Herrmann < >> tho...@openspaceconsulting.com> wrote: >> >>> I think the Law is about action too. You can act in three ways**** >>> >>> **1. **Mental movement (try to change yourself, focus and be >>> fully present, maybe you are missing something important here) – thanks >>> Jan-Erik for this perspective during NOSonOS in august!**** >>> >>> **2. **“Intervention” into what you don’t enjoy, for example if >>> you find the break out group too large – say it!**** >>> >>> **3. **Leave and go somewhere else.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Cheers**** >>> >>> Thomas Herrmann**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *Från:* oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org [mailto: >>> oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] *För *Chris Corrigan >>> *Skickat:* den 23 oktober 2012 07:13 >>> *Till:* World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> *Kopia:* World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> *Ämne:* Re: [OSList] Peggy plus OST Linkedin Comment**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Koos...for me the law of two feet is about passion and responsibility. >>> If you care about something, take care of it. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Paul may have felt that he was "taking care of it" when he produced his >>> critiques of the event in London. Possibly. But my experience is that many >>> people are comfortable just being in their passion about something - >>> sometimes just ranting - and fail to join in, support, improve, help out or >>> otherwise make a responsibility based offering to the situation at hand. >>> While i appreciate criticism and am perfectly capable of wrestling with >>> ideas - and in this case I even pointed out that there is much merit in >>> Paul's observations - I nevertheless would invite consideration of the fact >>> that if someone is sitting through an open space event and not offering >>> responsibility, that the criticism has the feeling of being sniping from >>> the sidelines while failing to take up the invitation at hand and it's hard >>> to work with that. That is all.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> A some level, love it or leave is also always an option, but that isn't >>> what I'm talking about here. I'm looking for a more nuanced response from >>> a practitioner that is clearly very familiar with the dynamics of Open >>> Space and self organization and wondering what he did at the event to use >>> his own power to create the experience he was looking for.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> He may have done something, but as I read it, he stayed for whole thing >>> and then wrote a fairly detailed critique of the whole experience. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> So. Hmmmmm.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> ---**** >>> >>> CHRIS CORRIGAN**** >>> >>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com**** >>> >>> +1 604 947 9236**** >>> >>> >>> On 2012-10-21, at 3:22 AM, Koos de Heer <k...@auryn.nl> wrote:**** >>> >>> Hi Chris, **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the law of >>> two feet applies. If it means as much as "This is Open Space, love it or >>> leave it," I feel compelled to say that I don't support that. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Of course I can walk out of a session if I am feeling that I am neither >>> learning nor contributing. But if I have the idea that the Open Space >>> gathering as a whole could use improvements in the way it is run, referring >>> to the law of two feet can become a way to evade a discussion that needs to >>> take place. It can take place at a later date, which is what is happening >>> now and that is fine. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Koos**** >>> >>> >>> >>> Op 20 okt. 2012 om 21:23 heeft Chris Corrigan <chris.corri...@gmail.com> >>> het volgende geschreven:**** >>> >>> The critique in the article is fine. And the subsequent link Phelim sent >>> along is fine too. Paul's tone is a bit jarring and his argument isn't >>> helped by making a lot of generalized statements. Also he critiques WOSonOS >>> in a way that makes it hard to separate his critique if the event from a >>> critique of the team, even though he later clarifies that he wasn't >>> critiquing the facilitator. It's tricky to make a forceful and powerful >>> critique without it seeming personal. **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> My response to these posts is that Paul is right in substance. In >>> general my take in things is that the Law of Two Feet applies. If you are >>> not learning or contributing find some way or some where that you can. >>> That's what makes things better. Obviously expecting others to change the >>> way the way a process seems too dependant on them is rational madness. * >>> *** >>> >>> >>> Chris >>> -- **** >>> >>> CHRIS CORRIGAN**** >>> >>> Harvest Moon Consultants**** >>> >>> www.chriscorrigan.com**** >>> >>> >>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> *Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration*, >>> Bowen Island, BC <http://aohrivendell.withtank.com/>**** >>> >>> November 12-15 2012 **** >>> >>> >>> >>> **** >>> >>> *Art of Hosting in Faith Based Communities*, Salt Lake City, >>> Utah<http://aoh-fbc.withtank.com/what-we-study/> >>> **** >>> >>> November 28th - December 1, 2012**** >>> >>> >>> On 2012-10-20, at 5:09 AM, "a...@alanhalford.com.au" < >>> a...@alanhalford.com.au> wrote:**** >>> >>> Just spent a delicious three days co-learning with Peggy Holman here in >>> Perth then I read this - **** >>> >>> So, what's possible now?**** >>> >>> >>> http://rationalmadness.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-tragic-re-imprisonment-of-open-space/ >>> **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> take care out there**** >>> >>> alan **** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> * >>> **www.alanhalford.com.au >>> 0421 475 252 >>> skype: alanhalford***** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> * ***** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org**** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > > > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > >
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