THAT is VERY good to know. C
On 2012-10-23, at 10:39 AM, Phelim McDermott wrote: > Dear Michael and Chris, > > Three days after doing WOSonOS on the wednesday I stepped back in the saddle > and played the Comedy Store.. Over the years I am well used to telling jokes > to comics. Just for the record I can assure you it's much easier than opening > space to the spacenics! > > :) > > Phelim x > > ________________________________ > > I generally pick up emails only at the beginning and end of the working day. > I am currently aiming to respond the following day. If it is urgent please > call me on 07956 187298. > _____________________________________ > > www.improbable.co.uk > @openspacer > > > On 23 Oct 2012, at 18:26, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: > >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Herman >> Michael Herman Associates >> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >> >> http://MichaelHerman.com >> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Phelim McDermott <phe...@mac.com> wrote: >> Some thoughts Michael, >> >> >> On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:43, Michael Herman <mich...@michaelherman.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> All of which makes me wonder how many "osonos" events we've really had. >>> What if we did count them up and start numbering the as we go forward, as >>> ALL having been descended from the HHO-convened "originals." And what if >>> we agreed that, in the main, the clearly visible and open heart of any >>> osonos was a chunk of space and time where it ran "by the book" and if you >>> don't see it in the user's guide, then you don't see it in the room, >>> either? Wouldn't have to be the whole event, but there could be a >>> distinction between "this is what we do because we're excited, creative >>> people and this is what we do because it's the heart of open space >>> practice." >> >> In this discussion it would really help me if people were really clear about >> when they are making generalised suggestions or clear criticisms of WOSonOS >> 2012. (I'm not sure here if this is directed at our event. ) As those who >> weren't there could think WOSonOS 2012 twelve was an event which had lots >> of extraneous stuff added to the Open space part of the event. For those not >> there I want to make it very clear. There was nothing at the event which is >> not in the handbook perhaps the wall made of scotch/sellotape as we know >> this was a solution to the site, the principles being in more than one >> language and the break out spaces being animal pictures as we couldn't stick >> things on the floor. >> >> >> sorry for the confusion, phelim... i have absolutely no comment about >> wosonos 2012 specifically... never imagined anything i was saying could be >> read that way cuz i wasn't there. everything i'm suggesting here is all >> about all of osonos history and practice -- and all for the purpose of >> asking what should happen next... not trying to fix or change anything past. >> >> >> i don't know what happened in london, don't think anything negative or >> critical of your work there on the event, and like chris says, i count you >> among the relative short list of brave souls who's told jokes to comics. >> maybe the trickiness of your task is better captured by calling it "doing >> magic in front of magicians." the hands need to be VERY quick, indeed! >> >> -------------------------------- >> >> >>> If the experience is one of desiring a simpler execution of the basic >>> practice, then the solution is to offer to host an wosonos for yourself. >> >> Knowing what it is like on the UK scene I would say the solution is to offer >> an osonos now that WOSonOS has happened. This is certainly more possible >> after this years event. I doubt it would have been an immediately >> sustainable event or as attended if we hadn't been able to publicise it as a >> world event. Most of our support and income actually came from international >> streams. As it is we have not covered our costs by a considerable amount. If >> it had been an OSonOS I do not believe we w2ould have had the international; >> diversity we had. >> >> >> this is what i mean about the W making a difference, in that suggests to >> potential participants that this one is special. i think this has >> underlying reliance on and encouragement of some people being more valuable >> than others. i understand that this helps pay the bills, but the other >> solution is to make the event so simple that it can't possibly lose money. >> >> ---------- >> >> >>> If, however, you're from the UK, for instance, and the UK has just hosted, >>> that means you don't really have a shot at it for at least a few years. >> >> I think you now have a much better shot at running a successful OSonOS after >> what we did and I think there has been talk about this in sessions about the >> UK community. >> >> >> yes... a better shot at running an osonos perhaps, but not Wosonos... which >> is but once a year and keeps moving... so follow-ons are stuck with the >> budget concerns you mentioned first. my question is why do we need to twist >> ourselves up to make some events more special, more expensive, and more than >> a simple osonos? >> >> ------------------ >> >>> Further, if the process of choosing a host/location looks like it's been >>> pre-determined (which it often does, based on past comments by various >>> participants), then even if somebody like Paul was willing to host and the >>> community was willing to stay in the UK for another year, he wouldn't feel >>> like he had access to the process anyway. >> >> Everyone has access to the process of opening some space. If he wants he >> could communicate with the people who had a UK OS session and talked about >> further UK events. >> >> i'm not so interested in UK and Paul. I'm thinking about our worldwide >> community practice. I was just trying to explain the dynamic. >> >> ------------- >> >> >> >>> Finally, if the pre-determined processing of the decision, or >>> pre-conversations, about the next invitation happen someplace other than in >>> the event, newcomers like Paul are right to say they are excluded. >> >> It was made very clear at the event that if people were considering hosting >> they would be supported to do so. The "predetermined" element or eperception >> could be that if you are thinking of doing it a TWO YEAR prep time is >> definitely helpful and so it could look like people who have been thinking >> about it for a while know something you don't. >> >> >> i continue to be baffled by why it would take two years to prepare for the >> simplest meeting that could possibly work. osonos takes but a few hours to >> organize, really... it's all the other agendas, like expanding practice in >> underserved areas and growing local practice groups that take all the time. >> i just wonder if it's best and most effective for these various missions to >> travel in the same gathering. of course they'll never be inseparable, but >> collegial learning, practice evangelization, and local practice group >> development is a lot for one event to do. that's not what osonos was, it's >> what it's become... but i don't think we chose this consciously. that's why >> i'd like us to reflect on it a bit... yes it is what's happening, to some >> extent, but is it what we want? >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >>> With all these conditions present, it's quite possible that Thomas' three >>> ways of using Two Feet only make the situation worse. When someone comes >>> to the conclusion that they are stuck on the outside of the group and the >>> best we can say is "Leave if you like," that would seem a recipe for a bad >>> feeling -- especially once someone has made some investment to get to this >>> event and might feel stuck there for the two days, trying to figure it out. >>> >> >> No one has said leave if you like in fact I think people have encouraged >> Paul to engage in a conversation about his thoughts and I continue to do so. >> Please encourage him to join this discussion here via linkedin and facebook >> where he has been posting his blogs. >> >> During the process of putting together WOSonOS 2012 we were very open in >> making a number of invitations to be involved in helping us putting the >> event on. We held two, two day open space events which the UK OS community >> were invited to. During that process which definitely was not easy some >> people joined us and supported us.. others fell away. I also communicated >> to Paul before the event about how we were organising things and offered to >> meet him. That didn't happen. >> >> >> as i was asked to be part of the florida group, i responded directly to >> paul's postings by email. i've not heard anything back from him. i also >> invited him to be part of the conversation for florida. but again, it's not >> about paul. my point about "leaving" was in response to thomas' three >> options, the last of which was "you can leave". which is true enough, but >> i'm saying not perhaps very satisfying in some cases. >> >> --------------------------- >> >>> I'm not trying to put words in Paul's mouth or speak for him... I'm just >>> saying that it's possible that the way we invite and welcome and include >>> people in wosonos conversations, including the ones about where the next >>> event(s) might be held, might be ripe for review. As we go along, and get >>> deeper in our own community practice and accumulate artifacts and habits, >>> we start to look a lot like a traditional organization -- in the sense that >>> we have an interest in stability, continuation, dependability, and such -- >>> even as we are supposedly all about emergence and making it up as we go. >> >> Likewise I'm not sure what Paul is thinking either. I have invited him to >> join us on this list as I think Artur did as well. I do know that Paul was >> interested in opening the space for WOSonOS in his own style which is to do >> it in 2 and a half minutes. So I imagine he would think my introduction went >> on a bit! (I must do some work on that). >> >> >> two and a half minutes is pretty short! i'm curious but not very excited >> about what that would look like! >> >> ------------------------- >> >>> >>> Like look at our watch midway through briefing the principle that says >>> "whenever it happens is the right time," the more habituated we become in >>> our gathering practice, the more we depend on and add to how we do wosonos >>> -- (even the W that got added a few years ago, for instance, creates >>> scarcity by giving one event some "specialness" above all others that year) >>> -- the more we add to our wosonos convening manual, beyond what's in the >>> user's guide, the more we are potentially perceived as welcomers who aren't >>> being very welcoming. >>> >> >> I mentioned in my opening the importance of not seeing an OST event as >> something special and that "Wherever it happens is the right place" is a >> useful reminder of this to me about this. >> >>> What if we didn't have any more Wosonos events, for instance, what if we >>> just counted ALL osonos events as equal. We wouldn't necessarily celebrate >>> the "20th anniversary" but could celebrate the 20th osonos and the 30th and >>> 100th... without giving the one somehow decended from Harrison's original 4 >>> events at dulles airport any more importance than what lisa does in san >>> francisco, john does in haiti, or we've done here in chicago in the past? >>> If all osonos events were allowed to be held as equal, then anyone could >>> put one on the map and the only side conversations would be among old >>> friends deciding where they might be able to meet up. And note, too, that >>> there's nothing that says that if someone is hosting in australia, i can't >>> host an full and equal peer gathering at the very same time, in chicago. >>> neither event needs special W-ing, and anyone can choose between either >>> gathering, and be surprised by who shows up, from how far or near. >>> >> This was suggested by Paul at WOSonOS as one less thing to do. That we >> perhaps shouldn't do WOSonOS again. A part of me thinks.. It would certainly >> save a lot of work and stress. Another part says thats a bit like saying >> maybe it would be better if we didn't have any more parties! Maybe when >> it's over its over. >> >> >> i guess i'm suggesting that we do one less thing... one less letter... drop >> the W... when we started our globetrotting, we called it that to notice that >> it was something bigger... now we could just tally up the number of osonos >> events and number of cities or countries and simply report and celebrate >> that. i don't think osonos is over, but i'd like to think that it could be >> even bigger and more expansive and more connected/connecting if we could >> drop the specialness of one annual event (like dropping the specialness of >> keynote speakers, i think, and everybody listening to all the same stuff), >> if we could invite more and more simple breakouts around the world. more >> parties, not less! >> >> ---------------------------- >> >>> These are things I've thought about for many years, and found few ripe >>> openings to discuss, in part cuz I've not been able to attend osonos >>> anywhere for some years. So I can appreciate how somebody newer to the mix >>> might feel frustrated having made an investment to join and then come to >>> the conclusion that we're as deep in our habits and rituals as any other >>> exclusive organization. More frustrating because we always seem to say >>> otherwise. Having tried at times from "within" to have these >>> conversations, I can appreciate how hard it would feel from apparently "the >>> outside." >> >> Sometimes people are on the outside because they feel excluded and sometimes >> they enjoy "the outsider" role. It has some useful things to say. This is an >> interesting topic to discuss in relation to the Law of Two Feet. >> >> >> absolutely. and... if outside exists at all. hence my "apparently". >> >> ---------------------- >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> What if....? >>> >> >> Yep what if? >> >> that's what i want to find out! <grin> >> >> >> >> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Herman >>> Michael Herman Associates >>> 312-280-7838 (mobile) >>> >>> http://MichaelHerman.com >>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Thomas Herrmann >>> <tho...@openspaceconsulting.com> wrote: >>> I think the Law is about action too. You can act in three ways >>> >>> 1. Mental movement (try to change yourself, focus and be fully >>> present, maybe you are missing something important here) – thanks Jan-Erik >>> for this perspective during NOSonOS in august! >>> >>> 2. “Intervention” into what you don’t enjoy, for example if you find >>> the break out group too large – say it! >>> >>> 3. Leave and go somewhere else. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Thomas Herrmann >>> >>> >>> >>> Från: oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> [mailto:oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org] För Chris Corrigan >>> Skickat: den 23 oktober 2012 07:13 >>> Till: World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> Kopia: World wide Open Space Technology email list >>> Ämne: Re: [OSList] Peggy plus OST Linkedin Comment >>> >>> >>> >>> Koos...for me the law of two feet is about passion and responsibility. If >>> you care about something, take care of it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul may have felt that he was "taking care of it" when he produced his >>> critiques of the event in London. Possibly. But my experience is that many >>> people are comfortable just being in their passion about something - >>> sometimes just ranting - and fail to join in, support, improve, help out or >>> otherwise make a responsibility based offering to the situation at hand. >>> While i appreciate criticism and am perfectly capable of wrestling with >>> ideas - and in this case I even pointed out that there is much merit in >>> Paul's observations - I nevertheless would invite consideration of the fact >>> that if someone is sitting through an open space event and not offering >>> responsibility, that the criticism has the feeling of being sniping from >>> the sidelines while failing to take up the invitation at hand and it's hard >>> to work with that. That is all. >>> >>> >>> >>> A some level, love it or leave is also always an option, but that isn't >>> what I'm talking about here. I'm looking for a more nuanced response from >>> a practitioner that is clearly very familiar with the dynamics of Open >>> Space and self organization and wondering what he did at the event to use >>> his own power to create the experience he was looking for. >>> >>> >>> >>> He may have done something, but as I read it, he stayed for whole thing and >>> then wrote a fairly detailed critique of the whole experience. >>> >>> >>> >>> So. Hmmmmm. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> --- >>> >>> CHRIS CORRIGAN >>> >>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com >>> >>> +1 604 947 9236 >>> >>> >>> On 2012-10-21, at 3:22 AM, Koos de Heer <k...@auryn.nl> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the law of two >>> feet applies. If it means as much as "This is Open Space, love it or leave >>> it," I feel compelled to say that I don't support that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course I can walk out of a session if I am feeling that I am neither >>> learning nor contributing. But if I have the idea that the Open Space >>> gathering as a whole could use improvements in the way it is run, referring >>> to the law of two feet can become a way to evade a discussion that needs to >>> take place. It can take place at a later date, which is what is happening >>> now and that is fine. >>> >>> >>> >>> Koos >>> >>> >>> >>> Op 20 okt. 2012 om 21:23 heeft Chris Corrigan <chris.corri...@gmail.com> >>> het volgende geschreven: >>> >>> The critique in the article is fine. And the subsequent link Phelim sent >>> along is fine too. Paul's tone is a bit jarring and his argument isn't >>> helped by making a lot of generalized statements. Also he critiques WOSonOS >>> in a way that makes it hard to separate his critique if the event from a >>> critique of the team, even though he later clarifies that he wasn't >>> critiquing the facilitator. It's tricky to make a forceful and powerful >>> critique without it seeming personal. >>> >>> >>> >>> My response to these posts is that Paul is right in substance. In general >>> my take in things is that the Law of Two Feet applies. If you are not >>> learning or contributing find some way or some where that you can. That's >>> what makes things better. Obviously expecting others to change the way the >>> way a process seems too dependant on them is rational madness. >>> >>> >>> Chris >>> -- >>> >>> CHRIS CORRIGAN >>> >>> Harvest Moon Consultants >>> >>> www.chriscorrigan.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Art of Hosting - Participatory Leadership and Social Collaboration, Bowen >>> Island, BC >>> >>> November 12-15 2012 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Art of Hosting in Faith Based Communities, Salt Lake City, Utah >>> >>> November 28th - December 1, 2012 >>> >>> >>> On 2012-10-20, at 5:09 AM, "a...@alanhalford.com.au" >>> <a...@alanhalford.com.au> wrote: >>> >>> Just spent a delicious three days co-learning with Peggy Holman here in >>> Perth then I read this - >>> >>> So, what's possible now? >>> >>> http://rationalmadness.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/the-tragic-re-imprisonment-of-open-space/ >>> >>> >>> >>> take care out there >>> >>> alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> www.alanhalford.com.au >>> 0421 475 252 >>> skype: alanhalford >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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