And I would ask you to tell as about the way you see them. There is a wise and loving practice to be learnt from you. Thank you grand mother appreciatively Tova
נשלח מה-iPhone שלי ב-Jan 7, 2014, בשעה 8:00, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> כתב/ה: > Cant help but just have to throw something on this fire. Being a grandmother > of 10 (the latest one arriving last night), I doubt that Piaget has looked > into the eyes of a child and seen the consciousness and all the wisdom they > are born with. It is not something that is developing in stages, everything > is there already. > My question is - what does society do that blocks the children from using it > when they get older? > Blessings > Eiwor > > Genuine Contact Professional > A holistic approach to organizational success > Gateway Creation Tools > 070 2622946 > > ----- Reply message ----- > Från: "Marie Ann Östlund" <[email protected]> > Till: "World wide Open Space Technology email list" > <[email protected]> > Rubrik: [OSList] self-organization > Datum: tis, jan 7, 2014 00:50 > > > Hi Paul, > > Thank you for that. I'm not well versed in these theories but I know that > Habermas have used Piaget's theory of human evolution to describe evolution > of human society. What I find attractive with his view is his emphasis on > communication as the motor of evolution - human conciousness evolves through > interaction with others and become less egoistic or self-centred. However, > this evolution is not inevitable. That's why Habermas is so concerned with > the communicative side of society. It is through our interaction with others > that our self-centredness is challenged and hopefully modified. > > Others have challenged the view that it's possible to compare the evolution > of consciousness - from childhood to youth - with the evolution of society. > Still others don't agree with Piaget's theory (within his field) but I don't > know their objections. > > But if we use the idea that evolution of consciousness means becoming less > self-centred and more conscious of others - are we sure that human society is > evolving? And if we are, is it from a historical low-point (20th century > wasn't particularly wonderful, considering the WWs, Cold War etc.) or has it > progressed steadily from time immemorial? From what historical point do we > take our measure? From where, which continent, and what are we measuring? > > I'm conscious that I'm questioning some commonly held assumptions, and you > might find it ridiculous of me to do so. But that's what fools are for :) > > Marie Ann > > Skickat från min iPhone > > 6 jan 2014 kl. 22:38 skrev Paul Nunesdea <[email protected]>: > >> Hi Marie Ann, >> >> I apologise if interrupting an otherwise interesting conversation here with >> but when you ask >>> interested to know what you base your idea that human consciousness has >>> "clearly evolved". :) >> >> >> Piaget and others have written about how human consciousness evolves from >> birth to adult life. >> >> Most of this knowledge derives from cheer observation of small child's >> behaviour. >> >> If you extrapolate this findings to our own evolution as a species wouldn't >> it be natural that this same self-developing path applies to this other >> dimension of 'being human'? >> >> Happy new year!! >> >> From my iPad >> >> On 06/01/2014, at 18:02, Marie Ann Östlund <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> I do agree that Open Space is a form of organising - a beautiful and >>> eloquent one, as you say. If we bring 200 people in a room without any set >>> up, principles, law, facilitator etc, it most probably be quite a different >>> meeting than an Open Space meeting. So yes, a form of organising. >>> >>> Interesting view on self-organising. I hear what you're saying, and I think >>> many esoterically inclined on the list would agree. I'm esoterically >>> inclined, but don't quite agree. But that's not the point. This discussion >>> helps me understand how some of you define and view self-organisation, and >>> why you talk about it in the way you do. >>> >>> I'd be interested to know what you base your idea that human consciousness >>> has "clearly evolved". :) >>> >>> Marie Ann >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 9:30 AM, paul levy <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> HI Marie >>>> >>>> I'm suggesting quite the opposite. Truth doesn't always elude us because >>>> we are both tiny and universal. >>>> >>>> Open Space is a form of organisation. It is a minimally structured process >>>> that enables BOTH selves and the SELF to organise. >>>> >>>> Self-organisation is the act of the self, organising. The self is >>>> microcosmic, realised in the emergent, incarnated individual self, and >>>> macrocosmic in the holism (whole-ism) of the universe. Diversity lies in >>>> between, different levels and qualities of consciousness. >>>> >>>> As consciousness in our human selves has clearly been evolving, we've gone >>>> through various stages. Egoism has tended to both harden the self and lead >>>> to overstructure as those selves attempt to enclose and gain control over >>>> nature. Minimal structuring and organisation is an antidote to >>>> overstructure. Open Space Technology is such a minimal structure. And, oh >>>> yes, a structure it is. A beautiful, eloquent one. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2 January 2014 23:37, Marie Ann Östlund <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Thank you Paul. I'm not sure how to respond or if I need to. :) >>>>> >>>>> Truth with always elude us since we're tiny. But that doesn't mean we >>>>> shouldn't try to understand. And as you say: "Perhaps it's us >>>>> self-organising so the self might know it" That's what I'm suggesting. >>>>> Our experiences might help us towards some more coherence. >>>>> >>>>> Marie Ann >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM, paul levy <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Of course, all of these wonderful statements about what >>>>>> self-organisation is, are organising statements ! >>>>>> >>>>>> Open Space Technology itself, minimal as it is, is an organising process. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do enjoy lazy philosophy. It's part of our mysterious humanity. And >>>>>> making statements about self-organisation is like trying to bite your >>>>>> own teeth. You can't grasp this particular spiritual feather because you >>>>>> are the feather, the wind, the blowing and even the story of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Though, perhaps the "self" in self-organisation really does refer to the >>>>>> human self. >>>>>> >>>>>> The eye is formed by the light, for the light. Perhaps it's us >>>>>> self-organising so the self might know it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Happy New Year >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul Levy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 30 December 2013, Daniel Mezick wrote: >>>>>>> Such a rich topic! Thanks to Marie Ann Östlund for opening this topic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am compelled to add the following words (verbatim) from RIGHTS OF >>>>>>> MAN, by Thomas Paine. The book is quite an interesting read for folks >>>>>>> like us. It tends to confirm and join with all of Harrison's key >>>>>>> points. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My favorite quote in the book: >>>>>>> "...society performs for itself almost everything that is ascribed to >>>>>>> government." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When he says [society] in the text, he means groups to people who are >>>>>>> self-organizing, according to natural propensity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The whole book is here, for free: >>>>>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3742/3742-h/3742-h.htm#link2H_4_0007 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quoting below, from this specific section: >>>>>>> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3742/3742-h/3742-h.htm#link2HCH0001 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will you pardon my forwardness? I've taken the liberty of bolding a few >>>>>>> words for emphasis: >>>>>>> "So far is it from being true, as has been pretended, that the >>>>>>> abolition of any formal government is the dissolution of society, that >>>>>>> it acts by a contrary impulse, and brings the latter the closer >>>>>>> together. All that part of its organisation which it had committed to >>>>>>> its government, devolves again upon itself, and acts through its >>>>>>> medium. When men, as well from natural instinct as from reciprocal >>>>>>> benefits, have habituated themselves to social and civilised life, >>>>>>> there is always enough of its principles in practice to carry them >>>>>>> through any changes they may find necessary or convenient to make in >>>>>>> their government. In short, man is so naturally a creature of society >>>>>>> that it is almost impossible to put him out of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Formal government makes but a small part of civilised life; and when >>>>>>> even the best that human wisdom can devise is established, it is a >>>>>>> thing more in name and idea than in fact. It is to the great and >>>>>>> fundamental principles of society and civilisation—to the common usage >>>>>>> universally consented to, and mutually and reciprocally maintained—to >>>>>>> the unceasing circulation of interest, which, passing through its >>>>>>> million channels, invigorates the whole mass of civilised man—it is to >>>>>>> these things, infinitely more than to anything which even the best >>>>>>> instituted government can perform, that the safety and prosperity of >>>>>>> the individual and of the whole depends. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The more perfect civilisation is, the less occasion has it for >>>>>>> government, because the more does it regulate its own affairs, and >>>>>>> govern itself; but so contrary is the practice of old governments to >>>>>>> the reason of the case, that the expenses of them increase in the >>>>>>> proportion they ought to diminish. It is but few general laws that >>>>>>> civilised life requires, and those of such common usefulness, that >>>>>>> whether they are enforced by the forms of government or not, the effect >>>>>>> will be nearly the same. If we consider what the principles are that >>>>>>> first condense men into society, and what are the motives that regulate >>>>>>> their mutual intercourse afterwards, we shall find, by the time we >>>>>>> arrive at what is called government, that nearly the whole of the >>>>>>> business is performed by the natural operation of the parts upon each >>>>>>> other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Man, with respect to all those matters, is more a creature of >>>>>>> consistency than he is aware, or than governments would wish him to >>>>>>> believe. All the great laws of society are laws of nature. Those of >>>>>>> trade and commerce, whether with respect to the intercourse of >>>>>>> individuals or of nations, are laws of mutual and reciprocal interest. >>>>>>> They are followed and obeyed, because it is the interest of the parties >>>>>>> so to do, and not on account of any formal laws their governments may >>>>>>> impose or interpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/30/13 11:10 AM, Harrison Owen wrote: >>>>>>>> Marie – I think you have it just right. But maybe you are making >>>>>>>> things a little too complicated, and working a bit too hard. In my >>>>>>>> simple mind, things look like this. First: All systems are self >>>>>>>> organizing, even those we think we organize. Second: Organizing a self >>>>>>>> organizing system is not only an oxymoron, but stupid – especially >>>>>>>> when the system can do a better job all by itself. Third: Whenever we >>>>>>>> try to organize a self-organizing system, we inevitably get it wrong. >>>>>>>> Our efforts are “clunky.” Even though it may look great on paper, our >>>>>>>> efforts are never subtle or flexible (agile) enough. Fourth: Open >>>>>>>> Space is simply an invitation to self organize. In other words it is >>>>>>>> simply an invitation to be and do what we are. The fact that it works >>>>>>>> as it does has nothing to do with our knowing any philosophy, >>>>>>>> principles, practices... It works as it has for 13.7 billion years, >>>>>>>> long before we arrived on the scene, all without our help and >>>>>>>> assistance. Fifth: the real value of OST is as a training >>>>>>>> program enabling us to experience consciously and intentionally what >>>>>>>> all too often passes by unnoticed – Life. It is also a marvelous >>>>>>>> laboratory in which we can learn more about our natural state. And oh >>>>>>>> yes – all the principles, philosophies, practices, etc are fun, >>>>>>>> interesting, and useful to the extent that they help us to understand >>>>>>>> with greater clarity what is really going on. But at the end of the >>>>>>>> day they really don’t change a thing. I think. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ho >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Harrison Owen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 7808 River Falls Dr. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Potomac, MD 20854 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> USA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 189 Beaucaire Ave. (summer) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Camden, Maine 04843 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone 301-365-2093 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (summer) 207-763-3261 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.openspaceworld.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.ho-image.com (Personal Website) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of >>>>>>>> OSLIST Go to: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> OSList mailing list >>>>>>>> To post send emails to [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>>>>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Daniel Mezick, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New Technology Solutions Inc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (203) 915 7248 (cell) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bio. Blog. Twitter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examine my new book: The Culture Game : Tools for the Agile Manager. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Explore Agile Team Training and Coaching. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Explore the Agile Boston Community. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> OSList mailing list >>>>>> To post send emails to [email protected] >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> OSList mailing list >>>>> To post send emails to [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> OSList mailing list >>>> To post send emails to [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >> _______________________________________________ >> OSList mailing list >> To post send emails to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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