Cant help but just have to throw something on this fire. Being a grandmother of
10 (the latest one arriving last night), I doubt that Piaget has looked into
the eyes of a child and seen the consciousness and all the wisdom they are born
with. It is not something that is developing in stages, everything is there
already.
My question is - what does society do that blocks the children from using it
when they get older?
Blessings
Eiwor
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A holistic approach to organizational success
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----- Reply message -----
Från: "Marie Ann Östlund" <[email protected]>
Till: "World wide Open Space Technology email list"
<[email protected]>
Rubrik: [OSList] self-organization
Datum: tis, jan 7, 2014 00:50
Hi Paul,
Thank you for that. I'm not well versed in these theories but I know that
Habermas have used Piaget's theory of human evolution to describe evolution of
human society. What I find attractive with his view is his emphasis on
communication as the motor of evolution - human conciousness evolves through
interaction with others and become less egoistic or self-centred. However, this
evolution is not inevitable. That's why Habermas is so concerned with the
communicative side of society. It is through our interaction with others that
our self-centredness is challenged and hopefully modified.
Others have challenged the view that it's possible to compare the evolution of
consciousness - from childhood to youth - with the evolution of society. Still
others don't agree with Piaget's theory (within his field) but I don't know
their objections.
But if we use the idea that evolution of consciousness means becoming less
self-centred and more conscious of others - are we sure that human society is
evolving? And if we are, is it from a historical low-point (20th century wasn't
particularly wonderful, considering the WWs, Cold War etc.) or has it
progressed steadily from time immemorial? From what historical point do we take
our measure? From where, which continent, and what are we measuring?
I'm conscious that I'm questioning some commonly held assumptions, and you
might find it ridiculous of me to do so. But that's what fools are for :)
Marie Ann
Skickat från min iPhone
6 jan 2014 kl. 22:38 skrev Paul Nunesdea <[email protected]>:
Hi Marie Ann,
I apologise if interrupting an otherwise interesting conversation here with but
when you ask interested to know what you base your idea that human
consciousness has "clearly evolved". :)
Piaget and others have written about how human consciousness evolves from birth
to adult life.
Most of this knowledge derives from cheer observation of small child's
behaviour.
If you extrapolate this findings to our own evolution as a species wouldn't it
be natural that this same self-developing path applies to this other dimension
of 'being human'?
Happy new year!!
From my iPad
On 06/01/2014, at 18:02, Marie Ann Östlund <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Paul,
I do agree that Open Space is a form of organising - a beautiful and eloquent
one, as you say. If we bring 200 people in a room without any set up,
principles, law, facilitator etc, it most probably be quite a different meeting
than an Open Space meeting. So yes, a form of organising.
Interesting view on self-organising. I hear what you're saying, and I think
many esoterically inclined on the list would agree. I'm esoterically inclined,
but don't quite agree. But that's not the point. This discussion helps me
understand how some of you define and view self-organisation, and why you talk
about it in the way you do.
I'd be interested to know what you base your idea that human consciousness has
"clearly evolved". :)
Marie Ann
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 9:30 AM, paul levy <[email protected]> wrote:
HI Marie
I'm suggesting quite the opposite. Truth doesn't always elude us because we are
both tiny and universal.
Open Space is a form of organisation. It is a minimally structured process that
enables BOTH selves and the SELF to organise.
Self-organisation is the act of the self, organising. The self is microcosmic,
realised in the emergent, incarnated individual self, and macrocosmic in the
holism (whole-ism) of the universe. Diversity lies in between, different levels
and qualities of consciousness.
As consciousness in our human selves has clearly been evolving, we've gone
through various stages. Egoism has tended to both harden the self and lead to
overstructure as those selves attempt to enclose and gain control over nature.
Minimal structuring and organisation is an antidote to overstructure. Open
Space Technology is such a minimal structure. And, oh yes, a structure it is. A
beautiful, eloquent one.
Paul
On 2 January 2014 23:37, Marie Ann Östlund <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you Paul. I'm not sure how to respond or if I need to. :)
Truth with always elude us since we're tiny. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't
try to understand. And as you say: "Perhaps it's us self-organising so the self
might know it" That's what I'm suggesting. Our experiences might help us
towards some more coherence.
Marie Ann
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM, paul levy <[email protected]> wrote:
Of course, all of these wonderful statements about what self-organisation is,
are organising statements !
Open Space Technology itself, minimal as it is, is an organising process.
I do enjoy lazy philosophy. It's part of our mysterious humanity. And making
statements about self-organisation is like trying to bite your own teeth. You
can't grasp this particular spiritual feather because you are the feather, the
wind, the blowing and even the story of it.
Though, perhaps the "self" in self-organisation really does refer to the human
self.
The eye is formed by the light, for the light. Perhaps it's us self-organising
so the self might know it.
Happy New Year
Paul Levy
On Monday, 30 December 2013, Daniel Mezick wrote:
Such a rich topic! Thanks to Marie
Ann Östlund for opening this topic.
I am compelled to add the following words (verbatim) from RIGHTS OF
MAN, by Thomas Paine. The book is quite an interesting read for
folks like us. It tends to confirm and join with all of Harrison's
key points.
My favorite quote in the book:
"...society performs for itself almost everything that is ascribed
to government."
When he says [society] in the text, he means groups to people who
are self-organizing, according to natural propensity.
The whole book is here, for free:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3742/3742-h/3742-h.htm#link2H_4_0007
Quoting below, from this specific section:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3742/3742-h/3742-h.htm#link2HCH0001
Will you pardon my forwardness? I've taken the liberty of bolding a
few words for emphasis:
"So far is it from being true, as has been pretended,
that the abolition of any formal government is the dissolution of
society, that it acts by a contrary impulse, and brings the latter
the closer together. All that part of its organisation which it
had committed to its government, devolves again upon itself, and
acts through its medium. When men, as well from natural instinct
as from reciprocal benefits, have habituated themselves to social
and civilised life, there is always enough of its principles
in practice to carry them through any changes they may find
necessary or convenient to make in their government. In short, man
is so naturally a creature of society that it is almost
impossible to put him out of it.
"Formal government makes but a small part of civilised life;
and when even the best that human wisdom can devise is
established, it is a thing more in name and idea than in fact. It
is to the great and fundamental principles of society and
civilisation—to the common usage universally consented to, and
mutually and reciprocally maintained—to the unceasing circulation
of interest, which, passing through its million channels,
invigorates the whole mass of civilised man—it is to these things,
infinitely more than to anything which even the best instituted
government can perform, that the safety and prosperity of the
individual and of the whole depends.
"The more perfect civilisation is, the less occasion has it
for government, because the more does it regulate its own
affairs, and govern itself; but so contrary is the
practice of old governments to the reason of the case, that the
expenses of them increase in the proportion they ought to
diminish. It is but few general laws that civilised life requires,
and those of such common usefulness, that whether they are
enforced by the forms of government or not, the effect will be
nearly the same. If we consider what the principles are
that first condense men into society, and what are the motives
that regulate their mutual intercourse afterwards, we shall find,
by the time we arrive at what is called government, that nearly
the whole of the business is performed by the natural operation
of the parts upon each other.
"Man, with respect to all those matters, is more a creature of
consistency than he is aware, or than governments would wish him
to believe. All the great laws of society are laws of nature.
Those of trade and commerce, whether with respect to the
intercourse of individuals or of nations, are laws of mutual and
reciprocal interest. They are followed and obeyed, because it is
the interest of the parties so to do, and not on account of
any formal laws their governments may impose or interpose.
***
On 12/30/13 11:10 AM, Harrison Owen
wrote:
Marie
– I think you have it just right. But maybe you are making
things a little too complicated, and working a bit too hard.
In my simple mind, things look like this. First: All systems
are self organizing, even those we think we organize.
Second: Organizing a self organizing system is not only an
oxymoron, but stupid – especially when the system can do a
better job all by itself. Third: Whenever we try to organize
a self-organizing system, we inevitably get it wrong. Our
efforts are “clunky.” Even though it may look great on
paper, our efforts are never subtle or flexible (agile)
enough. Fourth: Open Space is simply an invitation to self
organize. In other words it is simply an invitation to be
and do what we are. The fact that it works as it does has
nothing to do with our knowing any philosophy, principles,
practices... It works as it has for 13.7 billion years, long
before we arrived on the scene, all without our help and
assistance. Fifth: the real value of OST is as a training
program enabling us to experience consciously and
intentionally what all too often passes by unnoticed – Life.
It is also a marvelous laboratory in which we can learn more
about our natural state. And oh yes – all the principles,
philosophies, practices, etc are fun, interesting, and
useful to the extent that they help us to understand with
greater clarity what is really going on. But at the end of
the day they really don’t change a thing. I think.
ho
Harrison
Owen
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