Hi Harold,
I did 4 days of training with Dave Snowden. He is actually quite
dismissive of a range of methods such as OST and AI, and calls the
people who use them fluffy bunnies! His style is to be quite provocative
because he wants people to wake up and think, he also calls six sigma
sick stigma. He doesn't like people who he believes are relabelling
existing methods as complexity methods.
At the same time, he recognises that all these methods have value in the
right context, and contextual applicability is a term he often uses.
I asked him about Open Space, and within his
paradigm/approach/understanding of complexity it does not fit in. His
methods try to avoid premature convergence by breaking up moments of
shared understanding or group think. His methods push people to scan
more data and possibly unrelated data by increasing confilct, etc.
So I think OST doesn't work for the way Dave Snowden wants to approach
complexity, however that is different to the question of whether it is a
method that does work in complex space. Personally I think it does when
used appropriately.
Hope that offers another angle.
Smiles Bhav...
I am grateful for ^
On 2 August 2014 09:02, Harold Shinsato <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Chris - thank you again for the mention of the Cynefin framework. I
very much enjoyed your youtube presentation about the framework to
the Art of Hosting Community at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRn3BM56W74. It was well worth the 55
minutes. I especially enjoyed your questions and answers section.
After I listened, YouTube presented a related video of a keynote by
David Snowden to a Lean, Agile & Scrum conference in Europe. His
talk is titled "Making Sense of Complexity".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6RfqmTZejU
I found his talk brilliant. I enjoyed the insights, but also the
challenges. David called himself a "Constructive Irritant" or a
curmudgeon. I'm not sure I'd recommend the talk to everyone in this
group - but there is one piece that was particularly confrontational
and important. I carefully transcribed it for you here. David
Snowden makes these remarks while showing a slide of a dragon
towering over two Knights, and one Knight says "Oh No! A big, evil,
DRAGON!". The other says "Quick! Somebody hold a meeting". Here is
what David says (it is at 49:05 in the talk):
"This sort of hold a meeting mentality, or worse still, I mean if
there was an Agile version of this, it would be 'Quick let's hold an
Open Space', because we can all have a nice time and nobody will be
challenged. Just to make a controversial statement: Open Space is
the enemy of innovation because it enforces consensus. There are
actually larger group techniques certainly which we and others have
developed which actually increase conflict because if you don't
increase conflict you don't get diversity and you don't get proper
testing. So the Law of Two Feet is the *enemy* of innovation because
it allows people to avoid confrontation where they need to do
confrontation. Right, it doesn't mean it doesn't have value, but
it's a contextual method."
This statement from David actually interfered with my sleep. I made
me question for a couple hours my deep emotional investment in OST.
As mentioned earlier, I saw and still see Cynefin as a way to help
promote the use of OST. Earlier in David's talk, when he described
how to work in the complex space, his recommendations sounded a lot
like an OST event. But quote I offer from him was clearly hostile to
OST. My first reaction to his "irritant" statement was that OST does
*not* enforce consensus. But other parts of his statement raise
interesting questions. Is there value in setting up large group
processes that don't allow people to avoid confrontation? Can OST
prevent needed conflict?
My take on Open Space as a method is that it has been traversing the
chasm on the innovation cycle between Early Adopter phase, and Early
Majority. I had expected Agile to help push Open Space over to Early
Majority. It sounds like OST may already be in the Early Majority
phase in the Agile community based on David Snowden's missive
against it. I've also predicted that OST will start facing open and
active hostility as it starts to break into Early Majority. David
Snowden may be some evidence this is happening.
I'm quite curious how others receive this statement against OST from
David Snowden.
Harrison, I quite enjoy what you've written, and I think there's
something in OST that most consultants and organizational
development experts are going to miss simply because the fundamental
assumptions of their traditions go 180 degrees in the opposite
direction of Open Space, wave riding, and the ancient mystery we
might now call our self-organizing universe. For me, I don't think
there is any end to the digging, because there is no way a "theory
of everything" will ever be able to capture it all. And still, there
are some of us that have not yet tired of digging. But my aim in the
digging into game theory, Agile, Cynefin, brain science, Tavistock
and group relations, sociology, psychology, etc. etc. is not "how to
deal with massive complexity ... by ... making models, and gathering
data." The joy in the digging is not to try to get to the bottom of
it. There is no bottom. There will never be a theory of everything.
But making maps, as long as we understand their fundamental limits,
is a wonderful thing. As long as we don't confuse them with the
territory.
Harold
On 7/31/14 12:59 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:
Good thinking Peggy, and having spent no small amount of time,
paper, and ink exploring the world of emergence or self
organization – I can definitely appreciate the effort. Helping
people to develop an awareness of the flow of the enterprise is
definite plus. Having said that, I find myself needing to issue a
caveat. Producing a model, even a very good model, of the flow of
self organization as it relates to complexity, is not to suggest
that we can fully understand the process, even less that we could
predict or control it. My experience has been that the more I
know, in the sense of actual experience and perception, the less I
understand. Perhaps it is the advance of senility, but I find my
rational capacity totally overwhelmed and over-awed by the
magnificent mystery of our evolving cosmos. This is not simply the
majesty of infinite space/time – but equally the fantastic
complexity, diversity and connectedness of the smallest creatures.
The Hummingbirds, for example who feed at my window. The
Paramecium (single celled protozoa that swim in my lake). A single
snow flake.____
__ __
Some might take my statement as the despairing cry of an old man.
The “old man” part is dead on... but there is no despair. Just the
opposite, in fact. It feels just wonderful! I am reminded of
conversations over the years with various “Systems Thinking”
friends. Bright people all, with enthusiasm unbounded. They were
certain that if they thought hard enough, collected data long
enough – for sure they could design the perfect system, or at
least understand the one of which they were a part (their
business, etc.). They sensed victory just over the hill, and I
surely wished them well. For myself, inspired by their effort, I
tried to do the same. But for me, the harder I tried, the worse it
got. In fact it became an infinite regression into ultimate
complexity. One could call it an exercise in despair. But that is
not how it felt... Liberation was more to the point with the
realization that you just couldn’t get there from
here...Wonderful!____
__ __
But how to deal with massive complexity in real life situations if
not by thinking about it, making models, and gathering data? It is
not that thought, models and data were somehow evil or useless,
but in terms of my quest, they only led down a rabbit hole out of
which I could not come. And the harder I tried, the deeper I
sunk... It felt just wonderful to just stop digging! But the
complexity of life remained.____
__ __
Somewhere along the line an odd curiosity captured my attention.
As our marvelous natural experiment in self organization (AKA OST)
proceeded, it dawned on me that contrary to all of my preconceived
notions, multiple groups of people of all sorts and conditions
from every part of the world seemingly engaged their complex, self
organizing world in an effective and productive fashion without
benefit of prior instruction, models of whatever sort, intense
facilitation (handholding)... In a word it appeared to be a
natural act. Even more counter intuitive (counter to my intuition
and expectations) was the fact that in those (relatively few)
situations in which either I or some colleague had endeavored to
“prepare” the participants with conceptual models, exercises of
various sorts, or explanation of the process (other than the
normal OS invitation to sit in circle) there was no visible sign
of improved performance, so far as I could see, and in fact there
was some indication of a decline. Now, almost 30 years into the
experiment I also have to say that my most difficult groups,
without exception, were those composed of The Professionals. Those
people who made it their business to THINK about all the details
(facilitators, systems theorists, etc.). Eventually even these
folks “got with the program” and everything happened just as it
usually does in Open Space. But the shift occurred, as I saw it,
only when they stopped thinking about it.____
__ __
I think there may be a lesson here. Engaging complexity is not
primarily a rational act. Even though complexity is a basic
existential concern for all of us, right up there with Death – the
resolution to our dilemma will not be found through rational
enterprise (thinking about it). A major frustration for us all!
But the good news is that we do not have to travel that route.
Indeed we really don’t have to travel at all. We’re already there!____
__ __
Proof is a slippery word, but I think it fair to say that the 30
year Natural Experiment of Open Space has rendered a verdict
almost as good. Highly Probable. Given our experience of 1000’s of
groups effectively dealing with complex, conflicted, inflammable
issues prepared only by a 10-15 minute
invitation/introduction...It is highly probable that the essential
skills and mechanisms were already present within the group prior
to their arrival at the circle. In short they were “already
there.” No need to think about it. Just Do it!____
__ __
Once done, it is then time for rational reflection. In truth our
innate capacity for dealing with complexity, once awakened, flows
so seamlessly that most people hardly notice. At the end of every
Open Space in my experience the people evidenced some real sense
of joy, satisfaction, completion... and little appreciation of how
it all happened. It just was. That is all they know, and all they
care to know. That status may be more than sufficient in the
moment, but it is also true that rational reflection in all its
forms (model building, data collection, etc) can enhance the
appreciation, and deepen the experience. ____
__ __
As one who has spent a lifetime doing all that “rational activity”
from model building to data collection (well, story collection J),
I can truly appreciate and applaud the effort. Useful undertaking,
I think. BUT none of that can hold a candle to the profound sense
of wonder and awe that I experience in the silence of my
not-knowing. That is truly wonderful.____
__ __
__ __
Harrison____
__ __
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