Hi John,

Thank you for your engagement on the OSList - I'm greatly enjoying what you are helping us look at.

When you spoke about "nothing mystical about" the will of the group, and in fact, that groups don't have a "will" - this goes explicitly against the core thinking I've experienced from several different traditions in looking at the group in the light of systems thinking. To take one tradition, here's a quote from what many call the "coaching bible", "Co-active Coaching: New Skills for Coaching People Toward Success":

"A team, an organization, even a partnership or intimate relationship exists as a living system, not simply a collection of individual parts. A human system can be thought of as a group of interdependent members with a common focus. The behavior of the system emerges out of the interaction of its players and is greater than the sum of its parts. The system itself is alive, has needs, strengths, weaknesses, values. It can be robust or fragile. In organization and relationship systems coaching, we refer to the system as the 'third entity'."

In this light, would you say more about your thinking that groups don't have will?

    Thanks,
    Harold

On 10/16/14 12:28 AM, John Baxter wrote:
Interesting questions Harold.

My first thought regards "will" - there's nothing mystical about it. Groups don't have will, individuals have will... groups just exhibit collective behaviour when these wills are aligned... though I guess it takes much more than that!

I think the magic (if not mysticism) of self organisation is that people can and do get together and do things themselves, regardless of formal authority from a boss or a group. All they need is to get adequate resources working towards an intent, with access to the right levers (including time, passion, social capital...; money is often down the list of importance).

The Formal Organisation assumes that this doesn't happen, but we all know that it does. Harrison gives good examples.

One or two or three people with aligned will might be enough for "where there is a will there is a way". Or in the case of the Pirate Party of Sweden (I just posted here about Swarmwise), the required "will" was 225,000 votes... and of course the thousands of activists who needed to campaign in order to catalyse that will.



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On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Harold Shinsato via OSList <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

    Harrison,

    A deep bow of gratitude for your thoughts around the patronizing
    quality of "empowerment" as well as the rich questions raised in
    your response to Daniel.

    Thank you for this quote "...if we understand OST simply to be an
    invitation to maximize the ongoing process of Self Organization -
    the basics are already in place and fully operational..."

    You say *the basics* are already in place. That seems to imply
    that using OST (for now at least) is helping us get beyond the
    basics. Is there anything else that helps us get beyond the basics
    for Self Organizing?

    Also, to your statement "When there's a will (desire/care),
    there's almost inevitably a way." Whose will? Is it the "will" of
    the Group/Organization as a whole?

    So despite the duly authorized say so of the Boss/Sponsor (or lack
    thereof), if the "will" of the Group is to do something, it will
    find a way. Could we better consider "Sponsor" support as the
    "will" of the Group? And if the will of the Group is at odds with
    the Boss's will, how do we tell when it'll be ok/safe/legal to run
    OST despite the Boss "just saying no"?

        Thanks!
        Harold




    On 10/15/14 10:47 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:

    Dan – Your Sponsor Properties are intriguing. My first-take
    response would be, Sure. All are useful. And the same could be
    said for having any party. After all, who would want to go to a
    party when there is nowhere to go, nothing to consume
    (resources), and the party itself is contrary to all regulations?
    End of report. Full stop!

    But is it? If so a whole mess of teenagers, Gen-X’s, what have
    you, would be very surprised. My experience aligns with theirs.
    When there’s a will (desire/care), there’s almost inevitably a
    way. Somehow the space clears, the consumables manifest, and who
    cares about the regulations. A fellow parent once said in jest
    that the fastest way to insure a massive neighborhood teen
    blowout was 1) Restrict all likely participants to their
    bedrooms. 2) Remove any and all possible “consumables,” and 3)
    Issue a proclamation that the Party Can’t Happen. That’s not a
    joke son. But of course such behavior could never happen in a
    well managed, bureaucratic organization. Right?

    Maybe. But my organizational experience suggests a rather
    different conclusion. I spent some 10 years in the (US) Federal
    Health Care establishment, mostly the NIH (National Institutes of
    Health), which most folks at the time (1970-1980) would describe
    as hugely bureaucratic and generally well managed. I can’t give
    you a totally accurate account, but I venture to guess that
    something like 50% of all the “program initiatives” I was
    involved with occurred without “official” sponsorship, with
    little to no resources, and no time or space allocated going in.
    In one situation where we were working to spell out something
    called “Competence Based Re-licensure” for physicians – which was
    about as popular as a skunk at a garden party – we worked
    together for  better than a year, involved a broad base of
    experts (including the past Director of NIH), and produced a
    product which is still having influence today. At the conclusion
    of our efforts, the Director of NIH came to me and asked what the
    budget had been. My response: “I don’t know sir. We never found one.”

    Doubtless that is just the aberrant behavior of HH Owen. But if
    so, that marvelous creative source of innovation, The Skunk
    Works, could never have happened. I think Tom Peters named the
    critter, but anybody involved with the creation of new products
    and who honestly describes how they happened, will recognize the
    beast. The poster child, of course is the “Post-it” from 3M. If
    you listen to the voice of 3M today, you might think that the new
    product arose from a careful plan, richly resourced, and fully
    blessed by the corporate powers that be. Nothing could be further
    from the truth. Post-its was actually the product of a small
    motley crew, with virtually no resources, except those they could
    “borrow,” often operating in secret to avoid corporate censure.

    But what does all this have to do with Open Space? Nothing, I
    guess. And everything, I do believe. Obviously Open Space as a
    formal entity (sit in circle...) had nothing to do with any of
    the above. It didn’t exist. On the other hand if we understand
    OST simply to be an intentional invitation to maximize the
    ongoing process of Self Organization – the basics are already in
    place and fully operational, as has been the case for 13.7
    billion years. I have found it very worthwhile to consider the
    operation of naturally occurring “Open Space” as a guide to our
    own efforts with OST. And there is a lot to consider, but in the
    area of “sponsorship” it would seem that what Dan has suggested
    may well be true, but is by no means the whole story. In a word,
    there is a lot more than meets the eye. I think.

    Harrison

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    *From:*OSList [mailto:[email protected]] *On
    Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
    *Sent:* Wednesday, October 15, 2014 8:37 AM
    *To:* [email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>
    *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Authority Distribution in Open Space

    Hi Harrison,

    Thanks for your rich reply and explanation of the role of
    [empowerment].

    Question:

    Is is true that if we have the 5 preconditions as you describe,
    do we still need the following to have an effective OST event?

    (Note I am assuming a private (not a public-conference-type OST
    event...)

    Sponsor Properties:

    1.  A Sponsor who has permission from the org, to allocate some
    of the org's scarce capital, to pay for the event expenses;

    2.  A Sponsor who has permission from the org, to invite people
    to spend a day if they so choose, by accepting the invite;

    3.  A Sponsor who has permission from the org, and is /willing/
    and able to "keep it open", with all the issues "on the table"
    with no issues "off limits" as described on page 20 of the GUIDE;

    4.  A Sponsor who has permission from the org, and is /willing/ to:

           a) Represent to the people that the Sponsor's plan is to
    immediately act the (as yet unknown) Proceedings and (drum roll
    here...)
           b) ...actually follow through and act on the issues that
    appear in the Proceedings, immediately following the event.


    If the Sponsor is missing even one of these properties, is it
    advised to proceed at all?

    Daniel



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