I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair. Paul
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, < oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote: > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring, > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points! > > I took special notice of the line: > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill... > > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement. > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...! > > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference, > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so, > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion. > Here is that great point: > > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great > “liberty of opinion,” to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms, > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like > James Madison, was concerned about this “the tyranny of the majority,” > which he saw as the Achilles’ heel of democracy. It isn’t only because > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment; > it’s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with). > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement... > > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in > a mass culture like America’s, because seemingly overnight even the > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes. > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest > they should be shunned in their turn... > > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as “impure” is no > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin > to experience those who are on the wrong side as “impure”—as in failing the > purity test—and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic > fear of infection, something else going on here—a sense that those with > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who > need to be taught a lesson, even punished. > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in > context of public health. > > June 2021 Gallup > <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx> > poll > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing > not to get vaccinated, “surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).” True to > the BIS’s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred, > of those who—because they believe or act differently—are now perceived as > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die... > > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy, > or the ability to model other people’s minds. When we lose that en masse, > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a > group effort. > > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own, > a condescension that in turn—this is human nature 101—eventually generates > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society’s leaders should not > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own > leadership—that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to > crush, but to better engage. > > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine > hesitant—those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated > for reasons that the majority may not understand—and which are often more > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job > loss and other restrictions. > > One needn’t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions > involved in our public health—particularly politicians, the drug regulatory > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not > simply about the vaccines; it’s about the absence of faith in the wider > systems that brought us the vaccines. “Public health moves at the speed of > trust,” notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public > health system to function better—safer, swifter, in ways that more > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens—it must be > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority. > > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF the > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in > the World. > > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <r...@diapraxis.com> wrote: > >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives. >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation. >> >> The best example I have seen so far, >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical, >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints". >> >> >> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one >> >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did... >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity. >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer. >> >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives. >> >> all best wishes, >> >> Rosaa >> >> >> >> * <http://diapraxis.com>* >> *Rosa Zubizarreta * >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration >> <http://diapraxis.com>* >> *coaching in participatory leadership * >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities* >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList < >> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote: >> >>> Dear Mark, >>> >>> >>> >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why??? >>> >>> >>> >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you >>> post it in the first place? >>> >>> >>> >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else. >>> >>> >>> >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself – so be it. It feels like >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place. >>> >>> >>> >>> Koos >>> >>> >>> >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-boun...@lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark >>> Carmel via OSList >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57 >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw...@mac.com> >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacar...@gmail.com>; World wide Open Space >>> Technology email list <oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree with you John... >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw...@mac.com> wrote: >>> >>> I’m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and >>> political agenda belongs on this list. >>> >>> Sent from John's iPhone >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList < >>> oslist@lists.openspacetech.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought... >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers: >>> >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox, >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family, >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates, >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens… >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate vaccine, it >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION, >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE >>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by those >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S. >>> >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell >>> >>> >>> >>> MC the MC >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> Past archives can be viewed here: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OSList mailing list >>> To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org >>> Past archives can be viewed here: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > OSList mailing list > To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org > To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org > Past archives can be viewed here: > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
_______________________________________________ OSList mailing list To post send emails to OSList@lists.openspacetech.org To unsubscribe send an email to oslist-le...@lists.openspacetech.org To subscribe or manage your subscription click below: http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org