i'm not sure if lucas can put you off the list or not, mark. i know i
can, but i'm not going to do that. at least not today.
at the same time, i'm reading your posts wondering what you were hoping
to learn when you posted. or what you thought you were contributing.
what does this have to do with why we're here on the oslist?
there's nothing wrong with bringing what you suspect might be an
opposing viewpoint. in 25 years on this list, we've had plenty of
disagreements, but i don't recall anyone calling folks haters, as you
have here. when you set disagree=hate, that closes the space. nobody
can disagree or they are horrible, hating people. that turns an
opposing viewpoint into an oppressing viewpoint. if the challenging
view was about open space, maybe we'd have to go there. or maybe not
even then.
can you bring this conversation back around to open space? that is,
after all, why we're here. we have a purpose. that's what makes this
space and every open space gathering work. or maybe we just let it go
for now?
when anything goes, on a listserv, everyone goes. let's not go there!
we have something to take care of here.
thanks to all who've weighed in on this thread. i've learned that from
now on, i should get all my jabs in brighton.
michael
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)
MichaelHerman.com <http://MichaelHerman.com>
OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://OpenSpaceWorld.org>
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:28 PM Mark Carmel via OSList
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote? Are you being a hater? Too?
... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
hate those who speak it...--George Orwell ...
To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling? You
accused me of: derogatory name calling. I guess it depends on what
the definition of derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is
TRUE is it derogatory? I simply made a post - super respectfully -
sharing an opposing viewpoint from someone else and ended up being
hated on, (using the term of modern slang...
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater
<https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater> ) and was
told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of
names... like now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas. So if
someone is hating on me - for sharing a thought, from others - (on
this list - that is what? the most open forum in the world?) and I
call them a hater, who is being derogatory, me or them? So to answer
your question in this context: Hell NO!
Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are
you going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said
honestly I will think twice about posting opposing views here again,
to keep haters (like you) off my back.
Cheers! And nice work on your software. Perhaps a new tool could be
incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you
see, look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way -
Stay Away from the Tocqueville Trap today...
Seriously,
All the Best!
MC
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
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2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? ([email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>)
5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
again? (Lucas Cioffi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
From: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: Rosa Zubizarreta <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, Koos de Heer
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
Message-ID:
<CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=jcju4+j0...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:jcju4%[email protected]>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe
inspiring,
interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
I took special notice of the line:
... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
nonspecific
symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly
ill...
It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or
start of a
sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's
time to
start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic
symptoms. But oh
no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all
right there
in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same
piece of
paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down
to local
docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and
hide from
your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to
spray chemical
cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on
everything you
touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary
confinement.
Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then,
you should
do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who
do nothing
and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker
as they
pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now
during
this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works...
The moment
you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with
hot salt
water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
reference,
Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not
because it
proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for
failure to do so,
but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
understand before sending participants into the new lion's den
known as
open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express
one's opinion.
Here is that great point:
...One person who understood how this works intuitively was
Alexis de
Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there
is a great
?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority
opinion forms,
it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it
pressure to end
dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins
in everyday
life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all
institutions) as
the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply.
Tocqueville, like
James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the
majority,?
which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only
because
divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
resentment;
it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
majorities
(indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to
start with).
The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out
thoughts and
actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward
movement...
...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
happens in
a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer
express
opinions or raise questions that only days before were
acceptable, even
though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual
level, people
who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
...tormented
by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this
occurs, he
wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure
being, and
those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you
too, lest
they should be shunned in their turn...
In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure?
is no
surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
Tocqueville
pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and
we begin to
experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in
failing the
purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That
we do this
even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along
with realistic
fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that
those with
whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad
people who
need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem
talking about
what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
context of public health.
June 2021 Gallup
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>>
poll
found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
choosing
not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
distancing
in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources
and supplies
(11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area
(5%).? True to
the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust,
even hatred,
of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now
perceived as
threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto
Star*, my local
newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy
left for
the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even
the person
quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been
lost: empathy,
or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that
en masse,
the results can be tragic, not least because getting through
this must be a
group effort.
As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public
health in
liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in
different
places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil
liberties, but
switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed
insufficient, is
reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may
work to get
more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys
that the
government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on
their own,
a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
generates
resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant
segments of
the population. The other approach, participatory public health,
sees the
need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health
outreach
itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders
should not
simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility
to generate
trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is
not to
crush, but to better engage.
In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
neuroscience
writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
understand
those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
COVID-deniers
or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor
is it
about the activists or political figures who feed off and
benefit from the
corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but
*also* anxious
about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
vaccinated
for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are
often more
anchored in history and experience than the majority would
suspect. They
are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening
with job
loss and other restrictions.
One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
hesitant in
order to learn something from them and about them, and about
society as a
whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different
issues than
the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
institutions
involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
regulatory
process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine
hesitancy is not
simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in
the wider
systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at
the speed of
trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want
our public
health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all
citizens?it must be
rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
majority.
Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members
PEACE! IF the
world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for
all of
humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there
would be
Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of
Ideas in
the World.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
conversation.
>
> The best example I have seen so far,
> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to
understand the
> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>
>
>
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
<https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
>
> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
neuroplasticity.
> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>
> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>
> all best wishes,
>
> Rosaa
>
>
>
> * <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com>>*
> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com>>*
> *coaching in participatory leadership *
> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mark,
>>
>>
>>
>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not
your words but
>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat
the quote
>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support
the text you
>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that
this kind of
>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that,
why do you
>> post it in the first place?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and
makes a fool of
>> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>
>>
>>
>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It
feels like
>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Koos
>>
>>
>>
>> *Van:* OSList <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *Namens *Mark
>> Carmel via OSList
>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> *Aan:* John Watkins <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; World wide Open Space
>> Technology email list <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you John...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive
disinformation and
>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>
>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>
>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But
>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot
for a thought...
>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
peacemakers:
>>
>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I
have known in my
>> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
chickenpox,
>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add
flu and
>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to
wear a mask and
>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully
vaccinated. I had
>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
vaccination. I
>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
vaccinated. I
>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you
haven't been
>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have
>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
family,
>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to
threaten
>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine
that would allow a
>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the
vaccines I listed
>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
discriminates,
>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social
fabric tightens?
>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
IMMUNIZATION. If
>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will
likely come to
>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
deceived... I
>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of
chemicals as a
>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a
legitimate vaccine, it
>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances
pretending to be
>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as
an INJECTION,
>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this
planet has
>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD
ECONOMY, ONE
>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies
in SCRIPTURE
>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
design by those
>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>
>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it
will hate
>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>
>>
>>
>> MC the MC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
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>>
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>
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
From: paul levy <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, Mark Carmel
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
Message-ID:
<CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=c...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
Paul
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe
inspiring,
> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle
points!
>
> I took special notice of the line:
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
nonspecific
> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become
deathly ill...
>
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or
start of a
> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us
it's time to
> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic
symptoms. But oh
> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all
right there
> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the
same piece of
> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on
down to local
> docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run
and hide from
> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to
spray chemical
> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on
everything you
> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary
confinement.
> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only
then, you should
> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others
who do nothing
> and wait until they cant breathe literally call the
undertaker as they
> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing
now during
> this disease. My solution is simple and better and it
works... The moment
> you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle
with hot salt
> water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
reference,
> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not
because it
> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for
failure to do so,
> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators
should
> understand before sending participants into the new lion's
den known as
> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express
one's opinion.
> Here is that great point:
>
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was
Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a
majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears
there is a great
> ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority
opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it
pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion
begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all
institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply.
Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the
majority,?
> which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t
only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
resentment;
> it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to
start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out
thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward
movement...
>
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of
crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight
even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also
changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no
longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were
acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual
level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find
themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this
occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure
being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon
you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
>
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as
?impure? is no
> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But
as Tocqueville
> pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion,
and we begin
> to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as
in failing the
> purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous.
That we do this
> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along
with realistic
> fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that
those with
> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad
people who
> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem
talking about
> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.
Here in
> context of public health.
>
> June 2021 Gallup
>
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>>
poll
> found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about
those choosing
> not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of
social distancing
> in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources
and supplies
> (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area
(5%).? True to
> the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust,
even hatred,
> of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now
perceived as
> threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto
Star*, my
> local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have
no empathy left
> for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings,
even the person
> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been
lost: empathy,
> or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose
that en masse,
> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through
this must be a
> group effort.
>
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public
health in
> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in
different
> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil
liberties, but
> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed
insufficient, is
> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may
work to get
> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys
that the
> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions
on their own,
> a condescension that in turn?this is human nature
101?eventually generates
> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant
segments of
> the population. The other approach, participatory public
health, sees the
> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public
health outreach
> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders
should not
> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> leadership?that they should double-down on their
responsibility to generate
> trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health
is not to
> crush, but to better engage.
>
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
neuroscience
> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily,
to understand
> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
COVID-deniers
> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds.
Nor is it
> about the activists or political figures who feed off and
benefit from the
> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the
vaccine
> hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but
*also* anxious
> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not
yet vaccinated
> for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which
are often more
> anchored in history and experience than the majority would
suspect. They
> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is
threatening with job
> loss and other restrictions.
>
> One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the
vaccine hesitant in
> order to learn something from them and about them, and about
society as a
> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about,
different issues than
> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
institutions
> involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the
drug regulatory
> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine
hesitancy is not
> simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in
the wider
> systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at
the speed of
> trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we
want our public
> health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that
more
> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all
citizens?it must be
> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among
the majority.
>
> Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members
PEACE! IF the
> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good
for all of
> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and
there would be
> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace
of Ideas in
> the World.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
conversation.
>>
>> The best example I have seen so far,
>> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to
understand the
>> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>
>>
>>
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
<https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
>>
>> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
neuroplasticity.
>> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>
>> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>
>> all best wishes,
>>
>> Rosaa
>>
>>
>>
>> * <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com>>*
>> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> <http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com>>*
>> *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Mark,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not
your words but
>>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you
repeat the quote
>>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed
support the text you
>>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that
this kind of
>>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with
that, why do you
>>> post it in the first place?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and
makes a fool
>>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It
feels like
>>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Koos
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Van:* OSList <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *Namens *Mark
>>> Carmel via OSList
>>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>>> *Aan:* John Watkins <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; World wide Open Space
>>> Technology email list <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you John...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive
disinformation and
>>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>>
>>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>>> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But
>>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot
for a thought...
>>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
peacemakers:
>>>
>>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I
have known in
>>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
chickenpox,
>>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add
flu and
>>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to
wear a mask and
>>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully
vaccinated. I had
>>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
vaccination. I
>>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
vaccinated. I
>>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you
haven't been
>>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have
>>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship
between family,
>>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to
threaten
>>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine
that would allow a
>>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the
vaccines I listed
>>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
discriminates,
>>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social
fabric tightens?
>>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
IMMUNIZATION. If
>>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
>>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
>>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will
likely come to
>>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
deceived... I
>>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of
chemicals as a
>>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a
legitimate vaccine, it
>>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances
pretending to be
>>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it
as an INJECTION,
>>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
>>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on
this planet has
>>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD
ECONOMY, ONE
>>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies
in SCRIPTURE
>>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
design by those
>>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>>
>>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it
will hate
>>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> MC the MC
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSList mailing list
>>> To post send emails to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>>
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
<http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSList mailing list
>>> To post send emails to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>>
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
<http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
<http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "OSList (email to post)" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
Message-ID: <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of
us, everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the
structures and institutions that served us in the industrial age
are not coping well with the complexities of today.) I?m drawn
to ask myself, what?s the common/universal thread? Is it that
this pandemic (and possible climate collapse, on its heels) have
every one of us feeling completely powerless for the first time
in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920. Elders who
remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly all gone.
Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness?
What can we learn from them?
Peace and love,
Marc
Marc Trudeau
mobile 774-641-8302
LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com <http://LikeBreathin.com>>
[cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless,
Like Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
From: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "'Mark Carmel'" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
Message-ID: <[email protected]
<http://auryn.nl>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the
author understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he
supports it. The fact that the authorities are clumsy in their
ways of coercion, does not mean that the behavior they are
trying to promote is wrong. The author is not against
vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece is
about short-sighted change management and has very little to do
with Covid, which is just an example in a much bigger picture he
is painting. The way you are twisting this into an anti-vax
argument is creative, but wrong.
Van: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>; Koos de Heer
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe
inspiring, interesting and intellectually important reference to
needle points!
I took special notice of the line:
... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
nonspecific symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they
become deathly ill...
It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or
start of a sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of
telling us it's time to start the fight against the bug bringing
on these basic symptoms. But oh no, that's not what our medical
geniuses tell us... it is all right there in black and white for
anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of paper from all
of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local docs,
who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide
from your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised
to spray chemical cleaners (that you are then breathing in the
whole time) on everything you touch, each time you touch it,
every day while in solitary confinement. Then, say our health
gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should do
something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
nothing and wait until they cant breathe literally call the
undertaker as they pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is
simple and better and it works... The moment you feel a runny
nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and
rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
reference, Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one
also... not because it proves my point on leadership loyalty and
retaliation for failure to do so, but because it is a profound
truth that all OST facilitators should understand before sending
participants into the new lion's den known as open and honest
input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion. Here
is that great point:
...One person who understood how this works intuitively was
Alexis de Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not
yet a majority opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and
it appears there is a great ?liberty of opinion,? to use his
phrase. But once a majority opinion forms, it acquires a sudden
social power, and it brings with it pressure to end dissent. A
powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all
institutions) as the majority turns on the minority, demanding
it comply. Tocqueville, like James Madison, was concerned about
this ?the tyranny of the majority,? which he saw as the
Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because divisiveness
created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment; it?s
also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
majorities (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority
ideas to start with). The majority overtaking the minority could
mean s
tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate
progress and forward movement...
...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
happens in a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly
overnight even the definition of legitimate speech (or thought
or action) also changes. Tocqueville observed that quite
abruptly a person can no longer express opinions or raise
questions that only days before were acceptable, even though no
facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
...tormented by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy...
Once this occurs, he wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun
you like an impure being, and those who are most persuaded of
your innocence will abandon you too, lest they should be shunned
in their turn...
In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure?
is no surprise, because of course they could carry contagion.
But as Tocqueville pointed out, this also occurs when there is
no contagion, and we begin to experience those who are on the
wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the purity test?and react
to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this even when
there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
realistic fear of infection, something else going on here?a
sense that those with whom we may disagree are impurities in the
body politic, bad people who need to be taught a lesson, even
punished.
A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem
talking about what we do! Facilitating THE participatory
proceess of OST. Here in context of public health.
June 2021
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>>
Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most
about those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns
about lack of social distancing in their area (27%),
availability of local hospital resources and supplies (11%), and
availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True to
the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust,
even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act
differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a
front-page story in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a
resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for the
willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even
the person quoted understood that an important mental capacity
has been lost: empathy, or the ability to model other people?s
minds. When we lose that en masse, the results can be tragic,
not least because getting through this must be a group effort.
As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public
health in liberal democracies, and both have been tried
historically in different places. One begins voluntarily, out of
respect for civil liberties, but switches to coercion when some
voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is reached. Ideally,
this intervention is based on the principle of least-necessary
coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get more
people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on
their own, a condescension that in turn?this is human nature
101?eventually generates resentment, even revolt, and the
disengagement of significant segments of the population. The
other approach, participatory public health, sees the need for
coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders
should not simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their
responsibility to generate trust in the public. The goal of
participatory public health is not to crush, but to better engage.
In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
neuroscience writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and
voluntarily, to understand those who have not made this choice.
This essay is not about COVID-deniers or anti-vaxxers, who
oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it about the
activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the
vaccine hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID
but also anxious about these new vaccines. These are the people
who are not yet vaccinated for reasons that the majority may not
understand?and which are often more anchored in history and
experience than the majority would suspect. They are the
Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
loss and other restrictions.
One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
hesitant in order to learn something from them and about them,
and about society as a whole. They pay attention to, and are
vigilant about, different issues than the vaccinated, and have
strong feelings about the people and institutions involved in
our public health?particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine
hesitancy is not simply about the vaccines; it?s about the
absence of faith in the wider systems that brought us the
vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed of trust,? notes
physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that
more effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all
citizens?it must be rooted not in coercion but in confidence,
and not only among the majority.
Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members
PEACE! IF the world was truly open to the best ideas to do the
most good for all of humanity, then Open Space Technology would
be mandated and there would be Statues of Harrison Owen in every
town square and marketplace of Ideas in the World.
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote:
Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
conversation.
The best example I have seen so far,
of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand
the viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
<https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one>
I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
neuroplasticity.
Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
all best wishes,
Rosaa
Rosa Zubizarreta
<http://diapraxis.com <http://diapraxis.com>> DiaPraxis:
Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
coaching in participatory leadership
advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote:
Dear Mark,
The one and only burning question I have is: why???
Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your
words but posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you
repeat the quote about society and truth, implying that you do
indeed support the text you posted. And then you write that you
agree with John that this kind of disinformation does not belong
here. If you agree with that, why do you post it in the first place?
Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes
a fool of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels
like bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
Koos
Van: OSList <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> > Namens Mark
Carmel via OSList
Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
Aan: John Watkins <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >
CC: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> >; World wide Open Space
Technology email list <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> >
Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
I agree with you John...
On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote:
I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation
and political agenda belongs on this list.
Sent from John's iPhone
On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote:
?
These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But here is food for thought, or better put... here is
a shot for a thought... that I wanted to share with YOU, the
World's greatest peacemakers:
Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have
known in my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles,
rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I
want to also add flu and pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine
that forced me to wear a mask and maintain my social distance,
even when you are fully vaccinated. I had never heard of a
vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I had
never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated.
I never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't
been vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have never seen a vaccine that threatens the
relationship between family, colleagues and friends. I have
never seen a vaccine used to threaten livelihoods, work or
school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines
I listed above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
discriminates, di
vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
tightens? It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things
except IMMUNIZATION. If we still need a booster dose after we
are fully vaccinated, and we still need to get a negative test
after we are fully vaccinated, and we still need to wear a mask
after we are fully vaccinated, and still be hospitalized after
we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to ...It's
time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as
a ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a
legitimate vaccine, it is a manufactured composition of unknown
substances pretending to be something it IS NOT. So, for me, I
will only refer to it as an INJECTION, which is being forced
upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL of every
aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many
Prophecies in SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus
was instituted by design by those whose agendum is TOTAL
population CONTROL... - B.S.
...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
hate those who speak it...--George Orwell
MC the MC
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
From: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
Michael Pannwitz
Message-ID:
<cafdvdfim_ve+uynhvna5qpgtg0rzbmuvtdmlmm5gfed_pxd...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:cafdvdfim_ve%[email protected]>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
To Amanda Bucklow,
Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided
by Rosa
Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow
me to take
on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your
response!
You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And
thank you for
the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of
Peace -
published.
Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the
book.
Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me),
to hush up
- ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and
... PLEASE
go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the
genius of Open
Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer
and allowed
others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks
Harrison
not giving up or giving in to your critics!
________________
Michael Pannwitz, you said:
They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their
program... this
was
not the end of the book....What happened?
... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and
later also
translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North
America,
Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view),
Australia,
the Caribic ...
Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts
later on.
Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited
the worst
pandemic on the globe.
Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us
ouselves...
like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy,
see here
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy>
And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which
virus is
that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
And who is best at controlling.
Yep, us.
What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
down a book from an author that had a vision?
... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top
tier points:
That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is:
CONTROL.... and,
that:
...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
__________________
Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point
by point:
...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your
response to Koos:
I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the
deaths we
continue to see... good for you.
I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it
with table
salt in 4 days.
I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who
are willing
to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you
out, Mark, on
your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like
bullying to
those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the
grief and
loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4
days.
______________
OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... and
want me to
change the subject because it has no learning and appreciation,
and that I
fail to acknowledge the grief and loss of those who couldnt kill
the virus
in 4 days using table salt? You call me a bully, and accuse me
of being
disrespectful, a flip flopper and inconsistent? Wow, that is
quite a pro
hit piece wrapped in intellectual language of a mediator.
Impressive take
down attempt. Well, now i am calling you out. First, NO
MA'AM, I will
not change the subject nor go away and play somewhere else as
Koos directed
me. You fell right into the Tocqueville trap of seeking to
silence, censor
and send away those who disagree with your opinions, or as you
put it your
...mental model... You want to kick me out of the club, right?
I offered
an alternative to doing nothing to kill the virus if one becomes
sick out
of immense feelings i have to acknowledge the grief and loss by
those who
could not kill the virus and who died or got gravely I'll. Like
a lot of my
friends. To me you are the one being disingenuous and deeply
disrespectful
by saying that Amanda. And I hope you too look in the mirror to see
yourself as an open space facilitator seeking to close down a
conversation
by insult. If you did see value in the conversation, perhaps
learning and
saving lives would result in your circle of influence. And as I
alluded as
one of my motives, to help people who facilit8 OST to be more
keenly aware
of keeping out of the Tocqueville Trap... Here is the quote
again from the
Needle Points piece Rosa shared. I Respectfully request you read
it along
with the rest of the link Rosa provided. Again I thank you for your
feedback regardless of how wrong and offensive I find it to be.
I did say I
agree with John in part to keep haters (like you) off my back and to
enlighten us facilitators (by the way, I love your handle:
Facilit8).. I
wish you wellness and hope and trust you see now Amanda how you
fell into
the Tocqueville Trap:
One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there
is a great
?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority
opinion forms,
it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it
pressure to end
dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins
in everyday
life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all
institutions) as
the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply.
Tocqueville, like
James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the
majority,?
which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only
because
divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
resentment;
it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
majorities
(indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to
start with).
The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out
thoughts and
actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward
movement...
...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
happens in
a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer
express
opinions or raise questions that only days before were
acceptable, even
though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual
level, people
who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
...tormented
by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this
occurs, he
wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure
being, and
those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you
too, lest
they should be shunned in their turn...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville>
I apologize and am sorry for offending anyone with the opposing
viewpoint I
posted and my comments that followed. Please don't kick me out
of the
club...
Respectfully Submitted with Congruence, Consistency, and Honesty
wishing
Peace of Mind to ALL you Peacemakers.
MC
On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 2:35 PM
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (John Watkins)
> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 5. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Michael M Pannwitz)
> 6. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (john watkins)
> 7. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
> 8. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? ([email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>)
> 9. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
> 10. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Amanda Bucklow)
> 11. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Rosa Zubizarreta)
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:35:06 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <CAFDvDFhpP-VkN=
> [email protected]
<mailto:xzuy1qk7ejcn_cuz%[email protected]>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But here
> is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
thought... that
> I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>
> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have
known in my
> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add
flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear
a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully
vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't
been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to
threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that
would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the
vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
discriminates,
> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will
likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals
as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a
legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances
pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as
an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this
planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD
ECONOMY, ONE
> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies
in SCRIPTURE
> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
design by those
> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it
will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
> MC the MC
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 14:38:52 -0800
> From: John Watkins <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID: <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive
disinformation and
> political agenda belongs on this list.
>
> Sent from John's iPhone
>
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But
> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for
a thought...
> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I
have known in
> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
chickenpox,
> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add
flu and
> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear
a mask and
> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully
vaccinated. I had
> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
vaccination. I
> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
vaccinated. I
> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't
been
> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have
> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
family,
> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to
threaten
> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that
would allow a
> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the
vaccines I listed
> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
discriminates,
> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social
fabric tightens?
> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
IMMUNIZATION. If
> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated,
and we still
> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will
likely come to
> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
deceived... I
> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals
as a
> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a
legitimate vaccine, it
> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances
pretending to be
> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as
an INJECTION,
> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL
AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this
planet has
> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECO
> NOMY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many
Prophecies in
> SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was
instituted by design
> by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
> >
> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it
will hate
> those who speak it...--George Orwell
> >
> > MC the MC
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >
http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
<http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
>
http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html
<http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220120/e9aae0ba/attachment-0001.html>
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 15:49:35 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> To: John Watkins <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
> Message-ID:
> <
>
cafdvdfg97hga0kpzqnyf+yrzozthpilkzw_h4htmj-xlvsf...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:cafdvdfg97hga0kpzqnyf%[email protected]>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it
will hate those
> who speak it...--George Orwell
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive
disinformation and
> > political agenda belongs on this list.
> >
> > Sent from John's iPhone
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
> > [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the
author. But
> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
> thought...
> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest
peacemakers:
> >
> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I
have known in my
> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
chickenpox,
> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add
flu and
> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to
wear a mask and
> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully
vaccinated. I had
> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
vaccination. I
> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
vaccinated. I
> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you
haven't been
> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad
person. I have
> > never seen a vaccine t
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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Past archives can be viewed here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
<http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]>
_______________________________________________
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To post send emails to [email protected]
To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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