Well said Greg. I look forward to such future discussions. Best,
Biraj McNeely wrote: > Thank you Biraj. I get very dizzy with tail chasing so I will not further > this particular discussion. > > I look forward to future issues that you and I will address together to > improve over-all healthcare. > > Greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Incandescent" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 9:37 PM > Subject: Re: FIM - OT/ PT and who gets there first > > > Greg and others who responded to my post: > > > > My post was NOT asking Greg to apologize. It simply expressed an opinion > of the > > tone of his post, most specifically where it said, "By the way, my > questions > > are not rhetorical. They are meant to challenge your reasoning and I do > expect > > answers aout of common decency and for the integrity of this discussion. > I have > > repeated questions I asked you that you left unanswered so you have the > > opportunity to tackle them head-on.". The reason I thought it was rude is > > because it presents the writer as patronizing and supercilious and the > person > > being addressed as someone who is being spoken down to. If I were to take > the > > tone that Vickie Patterson recommends in her post when she states, "I'm so > tired > > of being PC or being careful what I say, lest someone's feelings be hurt. > Be > > adult, take what is said, learn from it, get over yourself and go ahead > on." In > > that case perhaps I would simply be writing something to the effect "Cut > the > > crap man" and get it over with. If this is how we see ourselves as > interacting > > on a listserv then I would ask Vickie to lead by example. Doesn't seem > like > > such a good idea now, does it. Incidentally, I bristle at the whole idea > of > > being PC because I think it is pretentious, and puts the onus on > correcting > > problems superficially, rather than addressing underlying and complex > issues. > > > > My apology to David was NOT made on behalf of Greg, but simply to call > attention > > to the fact that as a listserv member I was not party to the tone the post > > took. At the same time, if I didn't say this before I enjoyed the content > of > > Greg's post, and the discussion thread in question. > > > > I am with Ann on discussing things in an "open, honest way". But I also > believe > > that the same rules apply here on the internet that apply in everyday > life. If > > in everyday interaction anyone were to tell another person that (s)he was > being > > given the opportunity to tackle issues, or that their questions were to > > challenge someone's reasoning. It would be reasonable to conclude that > the > > person being addressed was somehow lacking in opportunities to tackle > issues, or > > that their reasoning was deficient such that it needed challenging by the > > speaker. These implications made the tone of Greg's post personal in its > > impact, and seemed to be talking down to David and thus - rude. This was > the > > underlying and basic point of my post to Greg. > > > > As for Greg's characterization of my post being rude, well if I am > considered > > rude for calling attention to an issue of common courtesy - then so be it. > > However, I don't consider myself to be a self-effacing Canadian who is all > > "nicey nice" or anything along those lines. In any case generalizations > about > > behaviour along national lines are an over generalization by any standard. > As > > for vigourous debate, I am all for it. However, I tend to shy away from > it here > > on the listserv because I have done so over the years, and find some of > the > > issues that emerge are often the same ones that were discussed before in > some > > form (even as far back as three years ago) on which I wrote quite > vociferously, > > but now find I don't have the time to do so to the same extent as before. > > > > Hope that clarifies my position. > > > > Best, > > > > Biraj > > > > > > > > McNeely wrote: > > > > > Biraj, I appreciate your feedback, however I do not apologize for my > post. > > > As Canadians, I think we do not deal well with vigourous debate. We > must be > > > able to disagree and to express that disagreement without wasting > copious > > > amounts time gingerly and indirectly avoiding a point we are trying to > make. > > > > > > Rude? I think you are demonstrating to our American friends one of our > main > > > collective strengths and flaws. As I said above, vigourous debate is > not > > > rude. It is healthy and necessary. We must communicate directly and > not > > > expect people to interpret our implications correctly. > > > > > > Yes, I do believ it is expected that we will answer each others > questions or > > > directly explain why we are not. Yes, I couched my demand for answers > to > > > unanswered questions with a provocative term to elicit a response. They > > > were serious and fundamental questions that were essential to the > > > discussion. If they were not answered out of a simple debate strategy > of > > > letting them fall aside and be forgotten, the I challenged that head on. > > > David is obviously a very intelligent person and he rose to the > occasion, > > > which I expressed my respect for and appreciation of. > > > > > > I take no offense to your post, but I will say that it was at least as > > > "rude" as mine. Thank you for that. Decorum and short term courtesy, > to > > > me, is a close second to truth and resolution of problems. > > > > > > I once had a classmate who had to come late to a class when I was > studying > > > Carpentry (not OT). He sat down beside me and asked what the teacher > was > > > talking about. I said I wasn't sure. He replied "and your sitting here > > > like a dummy and not asking". That was pretty rude of him to say, but > he > > > was exactly right. I was wasting my valuable time by not asking a > necessary > > > question. That situation has helped me to obtain clarity when > necessary. > > > As human we make mistakes and employ unpolished dialogue sometimes. To > > > remove a tumour, often an incision must be made. The incision in > isolation > > > is extremely threatening/damaging, but in context it far outweighs the > > > damage caused by the tumour. (David, I am not saying your post was > > > cancerous by the way.) > > > > > > If I am wrong, rude or otherwise, I will apologize, I have no > misconceptions > > > about being perfect. But if my writing style offends you, I guess you > > > probably shouldn't read them. > > > > > > With regard to your apology. David seems to be a pretty capable and > > > understanding of a vigourous exchange of ideas. I won't presume to try > to > > > dictate what you should do about your apology. Feel free to apologize > on my > > > behalf anytime. Sometimes I mess up badly enough that I feel I do need > more > > > than me to apologize for my foolishness. Perhaps the next time I say > > > something stupid that offends my wife I could call you to apologize on > my > > > behalf as well? As a matter of fact, would you mind sendin me something > > > typewritten that expresses your sincere apology on my behalf with your > > > signature on it, but leave the reason blank so I can photocopy it and > use it > > > on various occasions that I may make mistakes. > > > > > > Take care, > > > Greg > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Incandescent" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:02 PM > > > Subject: Re: FIM - OT/ PT and who gets there first > > > > > > > Hello All: > > > > > > > > This has been an extremely interesting discussion thread and I am > really > > > glad > > > > that David (Dr. Lehman) has been contributing to it from a PT > perspective. > > > > However, and I say this with due respect to Greg - in my opinion the > tone > > > of > > > > his long post was extremely sharp, and if I may say so quite rude. > > > Perhaps it > > > > is just me, but as someone who has been on this and other listservs > for > > > some > > > > time now I don't think anyone is obligated to respond to each and > every > > > aspect > > > > of someone's posting. And even if a response is required I don't > think > > > the > > > > person seeking answers or responses need couch it in terms of an > > > expectation of > > > > common decency. I think we are all entitled to disagree with others > > > points of > > > > view, regardless whether they are OTs, PTs or whoever it may be. But > I > > > don't > > > > think we need to attack anyone and chastise them for not responding to > our > > > post > > > > in every detail. > > > > > > > > I think David has been extremely gracious in his reply to Greg's post. > > > > Certainly, I am no authority on netiquette, but I did feel offended > > > reading > > > > Greg's post and for this reason I would like to apologize to David, > and > > > want him > > > > to know that his opinions are valued and respected, whether I agree > with > > > them or > > > > not is altogether a different matter. > > > > > > > > At the same time I would like to say that I do not mean any offense to > > > Greg > > > > either, however I am calling it as I see it. Hope you won't mind this > > > feedback > > > > Greg. > > > > > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Biraj Khosla > > > > OT - Reg. - (Ont.) > > > > Canada > > > > > > *********��*********** > > > > > > Unsubscribe? 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