If you pick up a brick, and drop it on your foot, I can guarantee that gravity 
is going to cause that brick to fall on your foot and cause you pain. And it 
matters not one iota that you can find some gravitational physicists that write 
emails that you think are politically or ethically bankrupt. That brick is 
still going to fall on your foot and hurt you. That is the difference between 
gravitational theory (of which we have many scientific papers on) and reading 
someone else’s email. One is science – the rest is an exercise in sociology.

Science, and the scientific method, stand on its own. It is simply impossible 
for a small group of people to suppress a large amount of empirical evidence 
that would detract from their stated position. Instead we have a large body of 
scientific evidence (many tens of thousands of papers) that indicates certain 
things are happening, and they are being caused by certain causative factors.

You cannot point to anything that says contrary. If things were so ambiguous, 
there would be a corresponding number of papers that point to evidence that 
supports the contrary conclusion. But that body of evidence simply *does not 
exist*

And what is happening in the real world will continue to happen regardless of 
whether the IPCC cites a blog, or not. The rest of the science – IPCC or no – 
is still there awaiting refutation. Which you are unable to provide.

Cheers
Ken

PS I don’t have some fetish for peer reviewed scientific papers. The 
*scientific method* calls for the statement of testable hypothesis, and 
repeatable experimentation. That is what has allowed us to derive the theories, 
over time, whether that be biological, atomic, cosmic, physical, chemical or 
whatever. It’s what’s put man on the moon, and the computer on your table. This 
is why documents that follow the scientific method are valuable. The hypothesis 
that they put forward can be tested and refuted. And the experiments that they 
do can be repeated by anyone who cares to put in the time and effort – they are 
independently verifiable.

PPS the IPCC doesn’t produce any scientific papers. It’s job is to summarise 
the state of science. If a few false citations creep in, in a 3000 page 
document, where there are tens of thousands of citations, then that’s a human 
fallacy. The reports are vetted by many independent scientific bodies, and many 
government representatives. It’s not a conspiracy – it’s human error. The 
important issue is whether the conclusions are altered in any way. And at the 
moment they aren’t.


From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
Behalf Of David Connors
Sent: Friday, 5 March 2010 7:51 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] Bill gates on our energy futures - some tech miracles needed

I am over this. I am being pilloried as a neocon for just suggesting that IPCC 
references are less than scientific - that the UEA guys have vested interests 
and that people would be well served by looking at a couple of view points. 
Quoting guides on cleaning shoes, trying to get journal editors sacked and 
citing New Scientist is in - and in the interests of bandwidth and time - I'm 
out.

I have foxtel so I'm off to find some good neocon right-think. I leave you with 
scientists who have no political motivations at all and write only but peer 
reviewed scientific papers.

  [Description: Image removed by sender. 3324909334_c440763ed2.jpg]

On 5 March 2010 21:21, David Burstin 
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I may be reading this wrongly, but here is the argument as I see it (and btw I 
do believe in AGW):

Ken: I believe in science and the scientific process. I believe that there is a 
great deal of peer-reviewed science supporting AGW.
David: Agreed.

David: Despite the above, I am not convinced that we are being told the whole 
story due to [insert Climategate/email issues/etc]. These things show that some 
people disseminating the data/science have vested interests and are choosing 
not to reveal anything contrary to their view.
Ken: I don't find the issues you raise relevant. The science stands completely 
independently of the people disseminating it.

David: I believe that we are being told the truth, I'm just not sure if it's 
the whole truth, so I remain sceptical.
Ken: I am not sceptical. I have seen enough supporting evidence and nothing 
that disproves the existence of AGW.

It seems to me that both paths are legitimate choices. Ken/David - what am I 
missing?
Happy Friday
Dave





--
David Connors ([email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>)
Software Engineer
Codify Pty Ltd - www.codify.com<http://www.codify.com>
Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 
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