Whilst you are right that Tony is conflating professionalism with desirable employee attributes, I think you’re also conflating professionalism with “avoidance of high failure rates in IT projects” – there are many “professional” endeavours that have failures (whether it be accounting issues through to scientific experiments) which having a profession wouldn’t suddenly mitigate: a lot of IT works a commercial sphere where “good enough” is the goal. There’s plenty of other IT (utilities, aerospace, defence) where BAU failure is not tolerated. Certainly projects may go “over budget”, but that happens in civil engineering, legal disputes and many other “professional” activities as well.
And lastly, I think, in common parlance, “professional” and “white collar” have become conflated. Most people in the community would call marketing/advertising people, or human resources people, or vendor/contract management people, or people who work in finance to be “professionals”, whereas by the formal definition, they’re not. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Low (??????) Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 10:05 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? I follow what you’re saying Tony but the two concepts are separate. You are describing what you are looking for in an employee. You might consider that “professionalism” but you are not actually describing what most other industries would describe as professionalism. In most industries, professionalism is about a formal agreement to adhere to a code of ethics, being qualified in the first place, maintaining appropriate certifications, carrying out ongoing learning, etc. And, more importantly, ejection from the profession if you don’t do what’s required. It’s just that the IT industry places more value on a perceived ability to get something done. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but people that we consider to be IT professionals won’t ever be regarded as such by most of the community, and we’ll continue to see people that lurch from one disaster to the next with impunity. It’s worth considering that very few other professions would tolerate the failure rate that’s associated with IT projects. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 9:54 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Subject: Re: [OT] ACS - relevant? I somehow don't think being a member of the ACS suddenly gives you any more professionalism than any other person in the IT sector. In fact, having read resumes of hundreds of people I think I've only ever seen one that said they were a member of the ACS. But alas, that person did not have the skills we needed, so we had to pass. We were really looking for people who were emmersed in the technology and the best evidence of that was evidence of decent projects they'd worked on, attendance and speaking at user group meetings, and evidence of leadership. Certifications, sure, but not people who only knew how to do certs. And people with personality and the right attitude. T. On 29 Feb 2016 8:12 pm, "Peter Griffith" <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au<mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> wrote: Well put David B So I guess that means that IT cannot be regarded as a profession Bourne out by industry who seem more interested in experience rather than adherance to a professional code of ethics, code of conduct, code of practice. Is it unethical then for those working in IT to portray themselves as professionals?. On 29 February 2016 at 17:06, David Burstin <david.burs...@gmail.com<mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>> wrote: Some points on relevance... I used to be an accountant. There are many professional bodies that cover accountants, each being relevant only to the area of accounting they specialize in. CPAs are not the same as Chartered Accountants, and it is natural and obvious as an accountant which body you should belong to based on the type of work you do. For example, a public accountant in a suburban practice doing individual, small trust and small company returns would be a CPA, not a Chartered Accountant. All of the questions you asked have different answers based on which body you belong to as an accountant. So, who does the ACS represent? Software engineers? Hardware engineers? Database administrators? And within these, there are massive subsets, each with vastly different and perhaps even opposing codes of conduct and practice. Would the ACS promote "break-nothing" (eg if you worked at a financial institution), or "break-everything" if you worked at Facebook? I am not and never have been a member of the ACS. I looked at it but could never see the relevance. The only advantage was having a few letters at the end of my name that no one seemed to care about. So instead I got some other letters that slightly more (and I do mean slightly more) people cared about (MCSD, MCT). The questions that you ask are spot-on for a representative professional body. I just don't feel that they apply to the ACS because who exactly does it represent - and if the answer is "computer professionals" then that is so vague as to be meaningless. That's my 2c. On 29 February 2016 at 17:21, Peter Griffith <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au<mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> wrote: Cuppla more questions on relevance Do you subscribe to a professional code of ethics, code of conduct, code of practice? .Do you follow an on-going, coherent professional education process.? Are you accredited by any relevant, recognised, independent body, or by a Local, State or Federal government authority.? On 29 February 2016 at 16:30, Peter Griffith <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au<mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> wrote: Do you belong to a professional body? On 29 February 2016 at 16:27, David Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au<mailto:d...@signmanager.com.au>> wrote: Yes From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] On Behalf Of Peter Griffith Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 4:43 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Subject: Re: [OT] ACS - relevant? David, do you consider yourself to be an IT Professional? On 29 February 2016 at 15:35, DotNet Dude <adotnetd...@gmail.com<mailto:adotnetd...@gmail.com>> wrote: Haven''t even heard ACS since like 2000. Never comes up in interviews or any conversation at all from my experience. On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:50 PM, David Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au<mailto:d...@signmanager.com.au>> wrote: The only time I ever hear of the ASC (Australian Computer Society) is the punch line in bad IT jokes. But last night I had a Pakistani taxi driver who had just got his masters in IT. He spoke with enthusiasm about the ASC and how he was going to be paying them $12500 over the next year so that he could be accredited in IT. (!!) I just want to test the waters here; are the ASC relevant? Are they doing a good job? Does anyone ask for ACS accreditation during interviews? I am in Melbourne for work at the moment. Maybe it is a regional thing? -- Peter Griffith CP PH: 0408 832 891 -- Peter Griffith CP PH: 0408 832 891 -- Peter Griffith CP PH: 0408 832 891 -- Peter Griffith CP PH: 0408 832 891
