I think this might be of use to some people [image: Inline images 1]
regards, Preet, in Auckland NZ On 2 March 2016 at 10:41, David Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au> wrote: > I have enjoyed the conversation so far. ozDotNet is such a great forum. I > would like to bring the conversation back on topic. I am not trying to be > controversial here, I just want to know if my experiences mirror that of > others. > > > > I have never seen the ACS speak in the media when there is an IT issue; > like a security beach > > > > I have never seen the ACS speak publically about IT infrastructure; like > the NBN > > > > DDLS, New Horizons, etc are great at advertising and promoting their > courses. ACS never appear on my radar. > > > > I have never seen the ACS sponsor CeBit, TechEd, any local user groups, > etc (Maybe they did... if they did, it was not very memorable) (this > adds weight to my argument > https://www.acs.org.au/networking-and-events/events/endorsed-events) > > > > I have never seen the ACS quoted, reposted, liked, etc on facebook, > twitter, etc > > > > Is this the experience of others? > > > > Regards > > Dave > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: > ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Greg Low (??????) > *Sent:* Tuesday, 1 March 2016 1:23 PM > > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > But that’s my point. Agreed, it’s not necessarily anything to do with > whether the project fails. We know that. > > > > It’s the backside protection that is improved by the external > certification, not necessarily the project outcome. > > > > That said, I do see a large number of projects that have in fact failed > (or are perilously close to failing) through basic incompetence. > > > > It is a problem in our industry whether we want to face it or not. It’s > quite tiring to endlessly try to rectify the same sorts of basic problems. > > > > I really love work where it’s “how should we tackle this development?” > rather than “OMG, we’re in such a mess. What do we do next?”, when the > panic sets in. The more this happens, the more likely that some form of > regulation might occur, at least for sections of the industry. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > Dr Greg Low > > > > 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 > fax > > SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ > mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer > *Sent:* Tuesday, 1 March 2016 12:52 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > Do many IT projects fail because of the lack of externally certified > competency? I’m not sure they do. > > > > I’ve seen projects fail because requirements were uncertain (or changed), > or scope changed, or complexity was underestimated, or best effort > “guesses” based on incomplete information at the time ended up being the > wrong punt. > > > > Very few of these are “IT” problems – they are problems that come from the > business, or in governance, and some are just plain bad luck. > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ > mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Greg Low (??????) > *Sent:* Tuesday, 1 March 2016 11:02 AM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > Almost agree Ken. I don’t see having “professional” attributes as being > related to whether or not IT projects fail. What I do see is a difference > in the finger pointing when they fail. > > > > If I was the CEO responsible when an issue occurred, I’d feel more > comfortable having used staff that an external body says are professional, > rather than ones I assessed myself to be great at what they do. It avoids > me being stuck with having to try to argue basic competence. > > > > And yes, point taken about common parlance. I have a friend who is a > wheelbarrow mechanic and many who are sales engineers. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > Dr Greg Low > > > > 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 > fax > > SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ > mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer > *Sent:* Tuesday, 1 March 2016 10:46 AM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > Whilst you are right that Tony is conflating professionalism with > desirable employee attributes, I think you’re also conflating > professionalism with “avoidance of high failure rates in IT projects” – > there are many “professional” endeavours that have failures (whether it be > accounting issues through to scientific experiments) which having a > profession wouldn’t suddenly mitigate: a lot of IT works a commercial > sphere where “good enough” is the goal. There’s plenty of other IT > (utilities, aerospace, defence) where BAU failure is not tolerated. > Certainly projects may go “over budget”, but that happens in civil > engineering, legal disputes and many other “professional” activities as > well. > > > > And lastly, I think, in common parlance, “professional” and “white collar” > have become conflated. Most people in the community would call > marketing/advertising people, or human resources people, or vendor/contract > management people, or people who work in finance to be “professionals”, > whereas by the formal definition, they’re not. > > > > Cheers > > Ken > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ > mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Greg Low (??????) > *Sent:* Monday, 29 February 2016 10:05 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* RE: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > I follow what you’re saying Tony but the two concepts are separate. > > > > You are describing what you are looking for in an employee. You might > consider that “professionalism” but you are not actually describing what > most other industries would describe as professionalism. In most > industries, professionalism is about a formal agreement to adhere to a code > of ethics, being qualified in the first place, maintaining appropriate > certifications, carrying out ongoing learning, etc. And, more importantly, > ejection from the profession if you don’t do what’s required. > > > > It’s just that the IT industry places more value on a perceived ability to > get something done. > > > > There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but people that we consider to be > IT professionals won’t ever be regarded as such by most of the community, > and we’ll continue to see people that lurch from one disaster to the next > with impunity. It’s worth considering that very few other professions would > tolerate the failure rate that’s associated with IT projects. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > Dr Greg Low > > > > 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 > fax > > SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ > mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Tony Wright > *Sent:* Monday, 29 February 2016 9:54 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > I somehow don't think being a member of the ACS suddenly gives you any > more professionalism than any other person in the IT sector. In fact, > having read resumes of hundreds of people I think I've only ever seen one > that said they were a member of the ACS. But alas, that person did not have > the skills we needed, so we had to pass. We were really looking for people > who were emmersed in the technology and the best evidence of that was > evidence of decent projects they'd worked on, attendance and speaking at > user group meetings, and evidence of leadership. Certifications, sure, but > not people who only knew how to do certs. And people with personality and > the right attitude. > > T. > > On 29 Feb 2016 8:12 pm, "Peter Griffith" <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au> wrote: > > Well put David B > > > > So I guess that means that IT cannot be regarded as a profession > > > > Bourne out by industry who seem more interested in experience rather than > adherance to a professional code of ethics, code of conduct, code of > practice. > > > > Is it unethical then for those working in IT to portray themselves as > professionals?. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 February 2016 at 17:06, David Burstin <david.burs...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Some points on relevance... > > > > I used to be an accountant. There are many professional bodies that cover > accountants, each being relevant only to the area of accounting they > specialize in. CPAs are not the same as Chartered Accountants, and it is > natural and obvious as an accountant which body you should belong to based > on the type of work you do. For example, a public accountant in a suburban > practice doing individual, small trust and small company returns would be a > CPA, not a Chartered Accountant. > > > > All of the questions you asked have different answers based on which body > you belong to as an accountant. > > > > So, who does the ACS represent? Software engineers? Hardware engineers? > Database administrators? And within these, there are massive subsets, each > with vastly different and perhaps even opposing codes of conduct and > practice. Would the ACS promote "break-nothing" (eg if you worked at a > financial institution), or "break-everything" if you worked at Facebook? > > > > I am not and never have been a member of the ACS. I looked at it but could > never see the relevance. The only advantage was having a few letters at the > end of my name that no one seemed to care about. So instead I got some > other letters that slightly more (and I do mean slightly more) people cared > about (MCSD, MCT). > > > > The questions that you ask are spot-on for a representative professional > body. I just don't feel that they apply to the ACS because who exactly does > it represent - and if the answer is "computer professionals" then that is > so vague as to be meaningless. > > > > That's my 2c. > > > > On 29 February 2016 at 17:21, Peter Griffith <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au> > wrote: > > Cuppla more questions on relevance > > > > Do you subscribe to a professional code of ethics, code of conduct, code > of practice? > > *.*Do you follow an on-going, coherent professional education process.? > > Are you accredited by any relevant, recognised, independent body, or by a > Local, State or Federal government authority.? > > > > On 29 February 2016 at 16:30, Peter Griffith <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au> > wrote: > > Do you belong to a professional body? > > > > On 29 February 2016 at 16:27, David Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au> wrote: > > Yes > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: > ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Peter Griffith > *Sent:* Monday, 29 February 2016 4:43 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: [OT] ACS - relevant? > > > > David, do you consider yourself to be an IT Professional? > > > > On 29 February 2016 at 15:35, DotNet Dude <adotnetd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Haven''t even heard ACS since like 2000. Never comes up in interviews or > any conversation at all from my experience. > > > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:50 PM, David Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au> > wrote: > > The only time I ever hear of the ASC (Australian Computer Society) is the > punch line in bad IT jokes. > > > > But last night I had a Pakistani taxi driver who had just got his masters > in IT. He spoke with enthusiasm about the ASC and how he was going to be > paying them $12500 over the next year so that he could be accredited in IT. > (!!) > > > > I just want to test the waters here; are the ASC relevant? Are they doing > a good job? Does anyone ask for ACS accreditation during interviews? > > > > I am in Melbourne for work at the moment. Maybe it is a regional thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 > > > > > > -- > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 > > > > > > -- > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 > > > > > > > > -- > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 > >
