Trish:
I see what you are saying and on the one hand I
agree, I mean how could I not, yet on the other hand I find this
dilema truly disturbing and somewhat begging the question. I think we must be
able to discern between the non-medical interventions, if you will, of cultural
, familial, methodological, ideological, and other non- pharmacological
birth support mechanisms and pain relief by pharmacology and assisted
deliveries by obstetric interventions (arm, augmention etc.). When these medical
interventions are needed and I would be the first to agree that at times
they are, then the birth ceases to be a natural event and becomes a
medically assisted birth.
I think in some way we have allowed our language to
be come so loose and inclusive that words have lost their meaning, so now we
have to add adjectives, perhaps this is good, I am not a linguist, but at times
I do find it frustrating. Why, because as I wrote the preceding sentence I
was simply going to write "assisted birth" and then I realised that of course a
culturally/socially supported birth is "assisted" so I had to write "medically
assisted".
So we have to be careful how we use the words
"natural" and "normal". Do we mean "natural" as how women in the culture expect
to birth or do we mean it as nature designed us to birth (I am
becoming lost for words). Similarly do we mean "normal" in the statistical sense
of the most common way/event or do we mean it to mean without any danger/no harm
done like a "normal" temperature neither hyper or hypo thermic, in balance. In
countries such as Brazil it could be said (statistically at least), I
understand, that a normal birth is a caesarean birth.
You wrote: "I have perhaps (almost and
constantly reviewing) come to the
> conclusion that there is no such thing as 'natural birth' since we cannot
> seperate nature from culture". I would have to disagree with this conclusion since I think that as humans we are social animals/beings and as such, culture is a natural part of our lives. I do not think humans can separate culture from nature nor should we try. So "natural births" will look different in different cultural contexts, women receiving more or less non-pharmacological support so as to find their own inherent natural power.
> conclusion that there is no such thing as 'natural birth' since we cannot
> seperate nature from culture". I would have to disagree with this conclusion since I think that as humans we are social animals/beings and as such, culture is a natural part of our lives. I do not think humans can separate culture from nature nor should we try. So "natural births" will look different in different cultural contexts, women receiving more or less non-pharmacological support so as to find their own inherent natural power.
I guess because english is a living language, we
have to drop words when they cease to have the meaning they formerly had and
only use them when they have the commonly accepted meaning. I don't know if this
has happened to "natural" or "normal" yet but I think it is on the
way.
"it's all just about degrees of intervention and
who has control over access and implementation of them"
I just don't think we can we can put these
different ways of experiencing birth on the same line, I don't think
they are the same path at all. If this were mathematics I know I could prove
they are not equal, not the same function at all but alas this is language. I
think these are reductionist thought processes and they lead one to a place
where nothing really matters. I don't mean to be rude, I just know I have been
down this path before (on other issues: the environment, vegetarianism, etc..)
and I know there is a counterpoint and I don't know what it is. I do think
however that this is a huge philosophical conundrum at least for me. Carolyn,
Help!!
my mind is boggling
marilyn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trish David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Natural
Birth
> biomedical definition of no intervention (including analgesia) fails to be
> sensitive to the taken-for-granted and therefore unseen aspects of culture. For
> example, the psychological and spiritual advantages of women being supported by
> other women are conferred by cultural practices: chanting, barracking, physical
> support, massage, prayer, etc. Birth in water, hypnobirthing, Leboyer birthing
> (remember him?), perhaps even Odent's practices, etc are all arguably part of
> the cultural practices of 'normal' birth.
>
> All these mitigate the affects of the 'Ps' we learned about as new students.
> Therefore they are all 'interventions' in some sense, though perhaps empowering
> and communal ones. I have perhaps (almost and constantly reviewing) come to the
> conclusion that there is no such thing as 'natural birth' since we cannot
> seperate nature from culture. Therefore it's up to us to figure out which
> aspects of culture serve our and women's interests...... Therein lies the
> debate. It is all just degrees of intervention, and who has control over access
> and implimentation of them.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Trish
>
> Marilyn Kleidon wrote:
>
> > Yes, we can get bogged down in semantics when discussing what is meant by
> > "natural birth". What I mean is clear to me and that is what was, I believe,
> > envisaged by the early proponents of "natural birth" is women birthing under
> > their own power without pharmacological pain relief or obstetric
> > interventions. However, I do understand that idea has been broadened by some
> > to include all vaginal births and shrunk by others with limitations to the
> > place of birth, birth position(s) and birth attendants as well as type of
> > management of third stage. Hence the term has becoome very loaded which I
> > personally think is a huge shame.
> >
> > marilyn
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trish David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 6:30 PM
> > Subject: [ozmidwifery] Natural Birth
> >
> > > I am not sure I know what is meant by 'natural birth' since it is
> > > totally embedded in cultural practices. Who has a reliable definition
> > > for this that is NOT biomedically oriented? Trish
> > >
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