Yes. I think the authors are clear. This has to be an international movement, with long term goals, rather than national or local political aims.
"It would mean building upon the post-nation-state territory of 'the stack' - that global infrastructure that enables our digital world today". Could others enlighten what is meant by 'the stack'? Anna > On 3 Nov 2015, at 02:18, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > > I don't see how this is contradictory, > > we don't have the power to implement this in the world, 'all at once' but > certain regions and countries can set the example ; there are also groups > working for a global BIG but I can't recall the name for now > > At least while we wait for this, > http://p2pfoundation.net/International_Simultaneous_Policy_Organization > >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:40 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> Well, the problem is more that it is not very well thought out and coming >> out over 50 years after Jorn's Situationists and Automation I feel we should >> have something a bit more coherent. (I am sorry, I was just reading that >> this afternoon) >> >> If the idea is that this is universal, i.e. guaranteed to everyone >> regardless of their national documentation, immigration status etc. etc. >> well then it does have profound implications. But hey, I don't think that's >> what is being discussed - can anyone go to Brazil and get some of this >> B.I.G.? >> >> Anything else reinforces xenophobia as can be seen in the UK where >> anti-immigration sentiments have been whipped up by talk about benefit >> tourism. >> >> I don't understand how having B.I.G. in one country can take us much further >> than another debased form of socialism in one country? >> >> all the best >> >> Fabian >> >> >>> On 02 November 2015 at 12:36 Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> agreed, >>> >>> but I think there is one thing that proponents underestimate, >>> >>> as Polanyi showed, making labour into a commodity was really central for >>> capitalism, and the basic income would profoundly undo that, in fact making >>> labour into a commons, >>> >>> it is worth fighting for, but let's not imagine it will be easy as this is >>> in fact a very radical proposal, which will overturn a lot of common logics >>> .. for example, it is likely that intellectual jobs will be paid less, >>> physical labor more, as no one will want to do them, >>> >>> Michel >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I agree with you Michel, it is not necessary to the argument for basic >>> income. But it enables us to see the necessity for the BI rather than >>> seeing it as just a utopian dream. The lack of jobs, and the continued >>> demand for people to be in work, makes no sense unless you see it in the >>> background of developing automation which is replacing labour, and which is >>> traditionally resisted by labour. It is this attitude which needs to open >>> to seeing automation as serving our interests rather than being the enemy >>> which deprives us of work. >>> >>> Anna >>> >>> On 2 Nov 2015, at 12:05, Michel Bauwens < [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> this hypothesis weakens the book in my opinion, it is not necessary to >>>> posit this to be for the basic income ... >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good question Ursula, and not one I can answer fully. It is the term the >>>> authors use on the book cover. >>>> They say: >>>> "FULL AUTOMATION >>>> With automation.......machines can increasingly produce all necessary >>>> goods and services, while also releasing humanity from the effort of >>>> producing them. For this reason, we argue that the tendencies towards >>>> automation and the replacement of human labour should be enthusiastically >>>> accelerated and targeted as a political project of the left. This is a >>>> project that takes an existing capitalist tendency and seeks to push it >>>> beyond the acceptable parameters of capitalist social relations." (P109) >>>> >>>> A vision of a post work society where people's time is free to use as they >>>> wish is the basis for this demand. If this becomes a project of the left, >>>> hopefully there is more possibility to influence and guide this tendency >>>> so that it serves all of humanity rather than just the few. >>>> >>>> Anna >>>> >>>>> On 2 Nov 2015, at 10:00, Ursula Huws < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> What do you mean by ‘full automation’? Ursula >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Anna Harris [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: 02 November 2015 09:19 >>>>> To: [email protected]; >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Cc: Ursula Huws <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: NEW FROM VERSO: INVENTING THE FUTURE BY NICK SRNICEK AND ALEX >>>>> WILLIAMS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This book offers the framework of building a campaign strategy around the >>>>> demand for full automation and a basic income for all. This is not a >>>>> short term demand but a vision of what can be achieved if labour groups >>>>> come together with academics and supporters to design the future. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Personally I believe they have drawn the supporting network too narrowly. >>>>> But that only makes the case for this campaign even more strongly. I >>>>> wrote some time ago: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> BIG (basic income guaranteed) may be revolutionary, but it does not need >>>>> the economic system to change drastically in order to be introduced. In >>>>> that sense it is reformist, although the effects are revolutionary. >>>>> The big advantages are that >>>>> 1. it can be introduced without massive changes to the economic system. >>>>> 2. It is a very simple idea which can be appreciated by people without >>>>> much knowledge of the economy. >>>>> 3. It has been tried in pilot experiments, and found to be successful in >>>>> stimulating economic activity. (Brazil) >>>>> 4. Many economists agree (James Robertson, Jeremy Rifkin, Edward Snowden, >>>>> Richard Swift) that with technology replacing many jobs that previously >>>>> required human labour, BIG of some sort is necessary. >>>>> 5. Naomi Klein highlights it in her latest book This Changes Everything, >>>>> as one of the game changing battles that 'don't merely aim to change >>>>> laws, but changes patterns of thought.'(p 641) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The authors are coming to Leeds for an open discussion on Nov 14. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/events/1624336424483090/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I believe that this campaign could appeal widely across all political >>>>> spectrums, and would welcome more discussion on this list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anna >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >>>> http://commonstransition.org >>>> >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>> >>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org >>> >>> >>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>> >>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>> >>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> >> > > > > -- > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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