Lasse Karlsson wrote:
From: "Chris Brogden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Let's look at the facts, boys and girls.
Fact #1. The sig file was not addressed to Lasse personally, it was sent
to the entire PDML.
Yes. He was showing contempt to the whole PDML in the most blatant breach of the most basic PDML rule there is: Don't use the list for your own political propaganda! However, that's exactly what he was doing, deliberately making sure his political message would roll in to the eyes of everyone who'd open a message labelled "My own DOF confusion" or "Active Image communication", and every other message he was about to post under every misleading subject line but "OT: American Right Wing Domestic & International Political Propaganda!"
This was the first message where I last Friday first encountered it, looking for a message on image communication:
From: "Collin Brendemuehl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: OT: Active image communication http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040319/D81DLQJ84.html
Check out the Nokia device. This device set begins a neat theme in home image management.
CRB
-------------------- Keep an eye on the Left. They complain any time we go after any group that hates America. They were ambivalent about going after Al Queda & going into Afghanistan. They really opposed overthrowing Marxists like Aristide and Saddam Hussein, et al. After all, they share a common goal with the former and common world view with the latter.
-- just me
[End of message]
Fact #2. Lasse did not like the sig file, and accused its author of being
"full of shit."
What I was reacting against was not the direction of the political propaganda, except for it dealing with principally the most controversial subject on today's political agenda: U.S. warfare etc., but against the fact that one list member showed such overt contempt of the whole idea of the PDML as a friendly, international, non-political mailing list on Pentax etc.. Had the direction been leftist, I would have acted exactly the same way. Whether I agree with the content or not is beside the question. Whether it was called a "sig file" or not is totally irrelevant, as the practical consequences are the same. (The fact that it was a sig file mattered only in the sense that you knew the political message was going to be repeated over and over. This would of course only make the matters worse.)
As soon as I saw it I responded:
"What's this crap doing on the PDML? You sent it Collin. You explain. Lasse"
There was no response or explanation although other, later posts in the same thread was responded to by Collin, I didn't know whether he simply chose to ignore my question, or if he'd realize what the message of it was. I was hoping for the latter. However, shortly afterwards I wanted to take part in the discussion on DOF and met this:
"You might also notice another DOF difference that's obvious when one thinks about it. A lens @ max aperture f3.5 is automatically SHOWING more DOF in finder than a 1.7! So you always SEE more right from the start! It would be like keeping your 1.7 lens @ 3.5 and holding in the DOF Preview all the time. Same thing.
CRB -- -------------------- Keep an eye on the Left. They complain any time we go after any group that hates America. They were ambivalent about going after Al Queda & going into Afghanistan. They really opposed overthrowing Marxists like Aristide and Saddam Hussein, et al. After all, they share a common goal with the former and common world view with the latter.
-- just me"
Both paragraphs filling an equal share of my mailreader window. My conclusion was that this person had deliberately chosen and set out to use the PDML for his own political mission. Questions, like the one I posted in my first message, was and would be ignored. Such behaviour amounts to trolling in my book. A troll is to me a low down creature in a similar way that I find terrorists are. They spit at us all in our faces.
In the meantime I had in private, in response to the question I had posed to Collin, from a fellow list member received the following explanation: "He's so full of shit it has finally overflowed."
I thought this be a very plausible explanation, why I sent the following message: "Do you know what they say about you, Collin? They say that you are so full of shit that it's finally overflowed. Is this true?
Just curious, Lasse"
His response: "You'll get over it."
My response: "No, I won't, you arrogant little piece of shit! Not as long as you keep trolling, littering this list and pissing in decent list member's faces with your moronic American right wing preachings. Lasse"
His response:
"Trolling? That was my sig. Nothing more. The insults and demeaning remarks are unsuitable and lack civility.
Preaching? Did I hurt your feelings somehow? Did that little thought jump out and bite you?
Right wing? Somewhat. But I honestly wonder what bothers you so. Open to some intelligent, civil dialog? (off-list, of course)
We can talk about Kant, Hegel, Marx, Mao, Jesus, Budda, C. S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, and whatever world view is appropriate.
Collin"
I did not respond. At this time the flame war was already high.
However the following day (Tuesday), Colin returned with the following message, including a well phrased motivation of his decision, by which he regained all my respect for him:
"For the purpose of maintaining positive relationships on PDML, a new sig is in place. Collin"
I soon responded: "Fine. Thanks. Lasse"
And that was it. As far as I was concerned, proper order was restored. Or could have been, hadn't all dirt smelling rats and snakes appeared yelling "foul language" and telling me to shut up, which they continue to this day, Friday. God only knows how long they will keep at it.
This is how Chris keep going about it.
Fact #3. This was a direct personal attack on the sig file's author.
What part of this is not clear? If simple logic seems absurd to you, can you please explain what methodology you're using here?
This whole thing is being blown way out of proportion because you won't recognize simple facts. Several PDMLers have taken offence to what you said, so I ask you again... at what point are you right and the rest of the PDML wrong? If you had handled this civilly from the beginning, this could have gone the other way, and Colin might be apologizing for his sig. But your response was more offensive than the sig because it was addressed to one particular list member specifically, so you took the heat.
Personally, I don't like Colin's ex-sig. I find its logic inexplicable
and its political tone inappropriate for the PDML. By rights I should be
agreeing with you. I wound up way to the southwest of Gandhi, after all.
Think about it... if you're alienating the people who should be on your
side, then maybe you didn't do the best job of putting your point across.
Fair enough, it happens to all of us. I'm sure you're a good guy and I'd
probably get along great with you in person over some beer, but I just
can't justify your overly personal attack on a PDMLer.
chris
I just might add that I don't need or ask for any apology from Collin. Never even thought about it. He's never done me any harm or directed personal ill will towards another list member, as far as I can recall. He is simply not that kind of person. Yes, I got angry at his behaviour, running that propaganda text, and for being arrogant in a reply to me. Big Deal. He simply decided to do the right thing, and that was it, as far as I'm concerned. So I don't really understand all this talk about me attacking him personally (of course I had to address the sender of the message called Collin). It was his behaviour that I wanted him to correct, for the good of PDML. He did so, with a brilliant motivation. We came to an agreement. And, as I said, he regained all his respect in my book. Most other posters in this thread however, are now in the middle of their successfull endeavour to deprive themselves of whatever respect I may have held for them before they started. Summing it up, I can't but find that Colin and I did a good joint effort in finding a positiv resolution of the question for maintaining positive relationships on PDML. So why is everyone so upset?
Lasse
