I totally agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion. Since this thread goes on, I will post once more.
Collin was quite clear about his opinions when he started this thread, and did not refer to any other thread in this forum. Knowing us, I'd say there probably was a reference, but without stating it I'm lost. I just don't have time to read all this list has to offer. :-)
For a while, there was an entertaining discussion about GPL and Marxistic roots, but it took, IMHO, a rather nasty turn with Collin's last post.
One thing I do remember about the science of philosophy from my own reading, is the importance of building one's thoughts in logical steps. If there are thoughts based on dogmas or assumtions, those should be explained.
In his last post, Collin shared some personal experiences where he made a point of finding a book about Marx in the office of a professor teaching dialectics, and that the Democratic candidate at the last election talked about "democracy" where the Republican candidate talked about "republic"; neither of which I can understand why he finds worth mentioning as "rational and reasoned" indications of precence of marxistic thoughts in the heads of the professor or any of the candidates.
On the contrary, he *assumes* that these tokens are indications of marxistic thoughts. He goes on to reason that since marxism is a philosophy, and governmental education programmes also are built on a philosophy, the education programmes are also marxist. While logically valid, it *assumes* that the philosophy is the same, which he goes no way to prove. Instead, he sets up a dogmatic "point", in capital letters:
--------quote--------------------
> /* THE POINT */
> To deny its [marxism] existence because of a form adaptation is > to miss the
> reality of its influence. It is endemic enough to be missed as > it
> doesn't stand out as distinct. It is now dominant.
> /* THE POINT */
-------unquote-------------------
I added the word in brackets.
Since "the point" is funded on reasoning where the assumptions are not clearly made, it's only food for flame wars and not arguments to propagate a reasonable discussion. Also, he introduced religion with reference to a book that noone will have time to read while this discussion is still on, and without putting forward any logical connection between christianity and his thoughts so far.
Therefore, I don't think I was being unfair to Collin when I kindly asked him to stop.
Cheers, Jostein
PS. The "free beer" argument was not mine, either.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Quoting Jostein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Collin,
May I humbly suggest that you pour out your "rational and reasoned
concern" about GPL software propagating marxist ideas somewhere else?
Dragging your religious views into it isn't exactly going to help your
case either.
This hardly looks fair, Jostein. Wasn't Collin commenting on other people's
posts, both about Marxism and Christianity?
I think he's as entitled to express his opinions on those subjects as anyone
else, as long as he's being polite about it, which he was.
ERNR
----- Original Message ----- From: "Collin Brendemuehl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Take a course in philosophy, will ya.
>> Quoting Jostein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>> >
>> > Quoting Paul Stenquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> >
>> > > American Marxist phobia is actually more a thing of the >> > > fifties
>> > > and
>> > > sixties. It's really quite dead. However, there are little
>> > > pockets of
>> > > folks with rather extreme views who keep it alive in bits >> > > and
>> > > pieces,
>> > > here and there. That's probably true of any system of >> > > beliefs
>> > > anywhere
>> > > in the world.
>> >
>> > Sadly, yes. I'd even opt for leaving out the "probably". :-(
>> >
>> > What puzzles me in this particular case is just the >> > anachronistic
>> > nature of
>> > the
>> > phobia... :-)
>>
>
> Obfuscating the discussion by talking about "free beer" only > avoids
> the issue.
>
> The revolutionary era of the 60s stood out because of the > violence.
> Maybe more recently people have heard of the Shining Path & > Castro.
>
> Not long ago I went to the reasonably prestigous Ohio State
> University here in Columbus looking to enroll in the EE program.
> WRT the program, it's impressive.
>
> But in the broader curriculum was a required course. It was a
> course in dialectics. And on the shelf of the counselor I talked > to
> was her notebook distinctly labelled "MARX". Unlikely it > concerned
> old toys or movies.
>
> Marxism is a philosophy. Communism is a form of government > derived
> from it. So is National Socialism. And western Socialism. All > are
> "Marxist" by definition, in one component or another. Whether > it's
> redistribution of wealth, egalitarianism, the "green" movement, > the
> "peace" movement, whatever mechanism is its expression, the
> philosophy is the dominant perspective in most if not all
> governmental educational systems.
>
> When John Kerry would, in the last presidential campaign, speak > of
> our government as a "democracy" and Bush would use the term
> "republic", the divergence of their world views was clarified.
>
> /* THE POINT */
> To deny its existence because of a form adaptation is to miss the
> reality of its influence. It is endemic enough to be missed as > it
> doesn't stand out as distinct. It is now dominant.
> /* THE POINT */
>
> For those wanting to understand it in its simplicity, the > clearest
> expression of a Marxist philosophy in pop culture would be John
> Lennon's "Imagine".
>
> As far as Christianity is involved, "The Challenge of Marxism" by
> Klaus Bockmuehl would be a good read. Published by Intervarsity
> Press.
>
> There is no phobia here. No irrational fear that they're going > to
> invade my house and take all of my possessions. It's a rational > and
> reasoned concern.
>
> Collin (subvert the dominant marxist) Brendemuehl
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the WebMail system at mail.safe-t.net
>
>
>
>
>
