I have been paying attention and you obviously haven't. You're talking about the older 10+MP bodies (K10D, D2X, D200, D80, D40X, A100) with last-generation CCD or CMOS sensors. The new 10/12MP CMOS sensors introduced in the last month or so ( in the D300, 40D, and A700) have massively improved high ISO performance achieved at the sensor, not by processing (The Sony A700, which is the one I've had a chance to look at seriously, produces results at ISO 6400 that is about as good as a K10D at 1600).
This is the same sensor tech that gives the D3 2+ stops of noise advantage over the 5D at the same pixel density. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: > I'm sorry, haven't you been paying attention. Every review I've read > that doesn't gloss over high ISO performance mentions the loss of detail > at high ISO in the 10+ mp bodies. Pentax simply doesn't offer 3200 ISO > on the K10D, makes you wonder why. Well maybe you don't and I don't but > for different reasons. I know why and you think it isn't so. All the > other manufactures are using advanced software algorithms to reduce > noise and maintain detail. The limits already being reached, you can use > software to mask it, you can pretend it isn't here, but that just > doesn't change the facts. > > Adam Maas wrote: >> P. J. Alling wrote: >> >>> What you need, and what Pentax needs to do, are two different things. >>> Try this on for size "If I could get that kind of performance without >>> SR, I wouldn't need SR." You probably won't acknowledge that that >>> statement makes as much sense as your argument. Yet that's converse of >>> your argument, and just as valid. They both make equal sense from a >>> personal stand point. >>> >>> There is one immutable fact. Image quality will degrade as sensor >>> densities increase beyond a certain point. That's simple physics. Pentax >>> has pretty much reached that point. Nikon had as well. This degradation >>> can b/e //ameliorated /with software, but at a price. In the case of >>> Pentax, noise that was massaged to make it look more film like. Nikon >>> was more aggressive and sacrificed detail. Nikon knew they were at the >>> limit so they stepped around it with a larger sensor, (something that >>> they were always planning to do). >>> >> Pentax certainly hasn't reached that point. The new crop bodies from >> Nikon, Sony and Canon indicate that the limit was far higher than >> previously thought (the 40D matches the 5D's high ISO performance, the >> D300 appears to have even better high ISO performance, the A700 is in >> the same ballpark). Sure, FF is always going to have an advantage, but >> current-gen cropped bodies are already exceeding what was current for FF >> performance in August. What was unachievable 6 months ago for >> crop-sensor high ISO performance is about to become the norm. FF isn't a >> holy grail and I don't see Pentax doing it until they can do a $999 FF >> body, which isn't anytime soon. Pentax isn't competing with the 5D market. >> >> >> >>> I know what you think you need, but what does Pentax need? Well they >>> need two things market share and profits. Pentax probably cannot be the >>> number one manufacture any time soon, (don't say never, Canon wasn't >>> always number one, but I'll be realistic). Being number two is also >>> unlikely, (as I said realistic), but being number three is doable. >>> That's what they have to aim for and to do that they pretty much have to >>> fight Olympus and Sony. >>> >> True. >> >> >>> The current Olympus system is based on the 4:3 system. Why hasn't >>> Olympus brought out their new Pro body? Because the image sensor is >>> giving them fits, that's why. >>> >> Actually, they solved that with the E-510/E-410 bodies, which match the >> midrange crop bodies in high-ISO performance. And that's before they >> look at adding the improvements Sony, Nikon and Canon have found which >> look to improve high ISO noise by 2 or more stops. They'll never match >> FF, and will ahve a hard time matching APS-C, but they certainly are at >> the point where high ISO noise is adequately controlled. >> >> >>> High ISO quality is lacking due to noise >>> at increased pixel density. Everyone else involved with the 4:3 system >>> is in the same boat, these cameras will be high end consumer grade from >>> here on, nothing more, (no matter how expensive Leica's versions are), >>> no matter what Olympus markets their new high end body as, partly >>> because the FF Nikon has raised the bar, and partly because of their >>> inherent limitations. Olympus has decided to compete with small camera >>> size with "reasonable" picture quality at low to medium ISO first, and >>> gimmicks like "Live View" second. (Of course Canon can match that >>> gimmick any time they feel like it, I know some will say it's not a >>> gimmick, but it is, really, just think about it). >>> >> Nobody other than Nikon, Canon and Sony have the resources necessary to >> compete in the pro FF market. >> >> >>> . >>> Sony has been slow up to now because they are feeling things out, they >>> are probably still integrating the K/M engineers and project managers >>> into Sony's culture. Sony sales managers insist on the cameras being >>> profitable, and they are milking the old K/M system as much as possible. >>> However they know to maintain and increase their market share they will >>> have to match the big boys, and that means a FF body, (as far as I know >>> they don't even make any reduced frame lenses), so look for a FF body soon. >>> >> Dunno about that, Sony as a company has not been particularly >> competetive in consumer electronics of late. They're relying too much on >> branding and not enough on providing superior product for good prices. >> Their last bastion of dominance was gaming systems and they've been >> pushed into distant third their by MS and Nintendo. The pricing on the >> A700 shows that Sony still doesn't get it, Canon's higher-performance >> 40D has a $100USD lower MSRP. And this in a market where Canon is the >> Big Dog. >> >> >>> That means that Pentax will have to get a FF body to keep from becoming >>> locked in a contest for 4th place with Olympus and the 4:3 system.. Hoya >>> will probably not like the odds at that point. They too are interested >>> in the camera line being profitable. If it isn't, and shows no signs of >>> becoming so, that's all there will be. >>> >> Profitable and large market share are not inherently linked. See Apple >> Computer or BMW for details. Pentax is filling a market niche that Sony, >> Nikon and Canon are all ignoring to some extent. Small, fast, and good >> glass is being ignored by all the other makers. >> >> >>> The market Pentax plays in is mutable. Four years ago the *ist-D sold >>> for $1600.00 The least expensive FF was the Kodak DCS 14n available for >>> about $4000.00. Today the Kodak is gone and you can buy a Canon 5D for >>> $3000, and the K10D is considered by many, (not just Pentaxians), to be >>> semi pro competition for mid range Nikons and Canons, thought it sells >>> for the price of an expensive consumer DSLR. Oh yes and 6 to 8mp >>> consumer grade DSLRs can be had for 1/2 what a consumer SLR cost just a >>> couple of years ago, and what an expensive P&S sells for now. >>> >> Things seem to be settling out. The price brackets have essentially been >> stable for the last 2 years, certainly since the DL was introduced. >> >> >>> Notice that I didn't mention megapixels much, well lets talk about them >>> briefly. 6mp sensors in DSLRs are now more or less dead, (like the >>> dinosaurs of my youth, you could kill one but it would take some time >>> for that knowledge to get to it's brain through it's gigantic body, >>> today's dinosaurs are different, much smarter and more active but I >>> digress). Sure 6mp cameras are just as capable as they were before, but >>> from a marketing standpoint they are history. So are 8mp cameras. Pentax >>> will probably start upgrading everything in January, they have to, to >>> remain competitive, (the K100D super was a stopgap with easy to >>> implement upgrades). The megapixel wars, silly as they may seem, are on, >>> and image quality will require bigger sensors, not just more megapixels >>> and Pentax will have to compete there or become an also ran, then to >>> take the Dinosaur analogy in whole different direction, extinct. >>> >>> >> 6MP is dead outside the bargain market. There will be a 10MP K100 >> variant, I'm sure. And Pentax has made room for a model above the K10D >> in the sub-$1000 market. I don't see Pentax aggressively trying to move >> upmarket, at least not until they have a better handle on the >> low/midrange market. >> >> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List [email protected] http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
