Stephen, List [ I changed the Subject line}
No- we haven’t discussed Michael Levin’s work - due to the strong hesitation on the list of exploring Peircean theories in other disciplines and using other terms. As you point out - his work is exceptional, and in my view, would be readily amenable to analyze within the Peircean framework. For example, in a 2019 paper in Frontiers in Psychology - on ‘The Computational Boundary of a Self: Developmental bioelectricity drives multicellularity and scale free cognition.. Just that title - the computational boundary of a Self’ invokes concepts of all three categories. He writes such things as’ Any Self is demarcated by a computational surface - the spatiotemporal. Boundary of events that it can measure, model and try affect. This surface sets a functional boundary - a cognitive ‘light cone’ which defines the scale and limits of its cognition…” and further.. The mechanisms of developmental bioelectricity - the ability of all cells to form electrical networks that process information - suggest a plausible set of gradual evolutionary steps that lead from physiological homeostasis in single cells to memory, prediction and ultimately complex cognitive agents… The above could readily be examined within the Peircean triadic Sign and the three categories - and note - how these cells engage in ‘Mind’ or cognitive semiosic actions. . And asks such questions as: What dynamics enable the scaling of cognitive capacities from the simple memory functions found in bacteria to those of sophisticated minds”. Obviously - this can be examined within Peirce’s 4.551 assertion that Mind can be found in all organisms [ bees, crystals.. Thanks for the excellent reference - My point is that the Peircean analytic framework is well-suited to examine processes found in physicochemical and biological systems - as well as societal systems such as economics. Edwina > On Aug 13, 2025, at 6:48 AM, Stephen Jarosek <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jon, List, > > Have we discussed, in this forum, the work of Michael Levin at all? I’ve not > been participating consistently and might have missed any reference to him > that might have cropped up. Levin factors in conditioning (association, > Pavlov’s dog, etc) and speaks of cognitive processes at the cellular/neuronal > levels, extending “all the way down” (his terminology). Much great material > on Levin’s work available online, and it’s difficult to select a “favourite”, > as we all have different priorities of emphasis. But here’s a recent one that > relates, at least loosely, to our current thread: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTBZRVKUwyM > > Cheers, > sj > > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf > Of Jon Alan Schmidt > Sent: 12 August, 2025 12:00 AM > To: Peirce-L <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] QM: Schrodinger's cat is semiotic - RQM explains why > > Stephen, Jack, List: > > Peirce's metaphysical distinction between existence and reality seems > applicable here. > > Existence as reacting with the other like things in the environment is always > temporal and actual. In that sense, nothing exists atemporally, and saying > that a pure possibility exists is incoherent. On the other hand, a scholastic > realist maintains that there are atemporal realities that do not exist, > including some (but not all) possibilities--specifically, for a proponent of > pragmaticism, those that "can become actual" (R 288, 1905). In quantum > mechanics, I suggest accordingly that a continuous wave function accurately > describes a probabilistic reality--a distribution of real possibilities--but > a discrete particle state only exists upon being actualized by a measurement > event. > > With that in mind, I propose combining and replacing Jack's #3-4--which, as > formulated below, are both straightforward contradictions and thus logically > impossible--to say instead, "is real but does not exist." This avoids the > pervasive but problematic presupposition of physicalism that Stephen notes, > which carries with it the nominalist doctrine that existence/actuality and > reality are coextensive, thus entailing that there are no real possibilities. > > My guess at what Jack is recalling as Peirce's "story about his brother" is > this one presented in a footnote, not as an example of abduction, but as an > illustration of how "reiterations in the inner world ... produce habits, just > as do reiterations in the outer world; and these habits will have power to > influence actual behavior in the outer world" (CP 5.487, EP 2:413, 1907). > >> CSP: I well remember when I was a boy, and my brother Herbert, now our >> minister at Christiania [ambassador to Norway], was scarce more than a >> child, one day, as the whole family were at table, some spirit from a >> "blazer," or "chafing-dish," dropped on the muslin dress of one of the >> ladies and was kindled; and how instantaneously he jumped up, and did the >> right thing, and how skillfully each motion was adapted to the purpose. I >> asked him afterward about it, and he told me that since Mrs. Longfellow's >> death [after accidentally setting her dress on fire] he had often run over >> in imagination all the details of what ought to be done in such an >> emergency. It was a striking example of a real habit produced by exercises >> in the imagination. > > I am now going to follow Jack's example by trying to stay quiet on the List > for a while. > > Regards, > > Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA > Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian > www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt> / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt > <http://twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt> > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 11:10 AM "Stephen Jarosek" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Jack, List >> >> >” Exists and does not exist (E∧¬E) — conjunctive/disjunctive paradoxes, >> >e.g., quantum superpositions in standard formalism.” >> >> THIS is a central issue that is now in question, thanks to RQM. Under >> classical QM, physicalists (materialists) controlled the narrative. Under >> RQM, however, there is no “superposition of states”. “Superposition of >> states” is what you have when a physicalist tries to factor in, for example, >> the peaks and the troughs of the Schrodinger wave equation. In RQM, by >> contrast, there is context and relations, there is the phenomenology of the >> very small, where the square-cube law strips subatomic particles of their >> classical properties, opening them up to possibility, availing them to >> context and relations. We no longer need to twist ourselves into knots >> trying to explain subatomic billiard-balls popping into and out of >> existence, a classically physicalist interpretation. RQM changes everything. >> >> The dominance of the physicalist narrative is, I suggest, behind the crisis >> in physics that is now popping up throughout conversations everywhere >> online. I foresee a solution in the synthesis of RQM with semiotics. >> >> Cheers, >> sj >> >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On >> Behalf Of Jack Cody >> Sent: 11 August, 2025 2:36 PM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>; Stephen Jarosek >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] QM: Schrodinger's cat is semiotic - RQM explains why >> >> Stephen, List, >> >> I would like to add this. >> Exists (E) >> Does not exist (¬E) >> Exists and does not exist (E∧¬E) — conjunctive/disjunctive paradoxes, e.g., >> quantum superpositions in standard formalism. >> Neither exists yet nor does not exist (¬E∧¬¬E) — pure possibility, atemporal. >> Interpretation >> Category (4) is distinct from (1)–(3). It denotes a state prior to >> instantiation in time: not actual, not non-actual, but possible. This is not >> mere quantum indeterminacy; it is an ontological axiom of free will and >> contingency. Whatever becomes manifest passes from (4) into one of (1)–(3), >> but (4) itself is temporally unbound. >> Mathematical Demonstration of Distinction >> Let P = "possible", A = "actual" (exists), and N = "non-actual" (does not >> exist). >> Normative quantum modal set: >> ΩQ={A,N,A∧N} >> All are truth-evaluated in time. >> Pure possibility modal set: >> ΩPP={¬A∧¬N} >> Here, ¬A∧¬N ≠ A, ≠ N, ≠ A∧N, and cannot be reduced to them without >> contradiction: >> Proof: >> Assume ¬A∧¬N=A. Then ¬A=A (contradiction). >> Assume ¬A∧¬N=N. Then ¬N=N (contradiction). >> Assume ¬A∧¬N=A∧N. Then ¬A=A and ¬N=N (double contradiction). >> Thus, (4) is maximally inequivalent to (1)–(3) and constitutes an atemporal >> necessity: a logical precondition for any contingent manifestation, >> including quantum events. >> The point I'm making is that the free will of the people relies on such a >> law as "neither exists yet nor does not exist" — distinct from normative >> quantum but necessary within that framework if it is to be coherent. If I go >> the shop and rob something, I know, analytically, in advance that whatever >> happens thereafter (bear in mind it will almost certainly not happen at all >> as I am not into stealing [4] — without contradiction) — anyway, what >> happens thereafter corresponds to such a "law or axiom" as (4) presents >> which you might say is explicated from Peirce insofar as it deals with "pure >> possibility" within and without quantum frameworks. >> >> Of course, Peirce considers "pure possibility" and "time" within the triadic >> categories (and that's fine) and also the above example I used would be a >> kind of "abduction" in one of the explanations Peirce gives regarding a >> story about his brother — it is years since I have read that passage — >> though, the difference, if there is any, is that no amount of >> thought-experiment now will change (4) as such (this would have to be a far >> longer reply and I'm sure many here would agree with (4) as used but >> disagree on how it is used if it seems too non-Peircean in context. >> >> Best wishes, >> Jack >> >> PS: I think the only necessity quantum demonstrates, at any logical or >> mathematical level, is that which corresponds ot the essential atemporal >> necessity of "big T Truth". A different topic perhaps. Anyway, currently >> working and restricting my posting on-list — will read, though, as I'm sure >> others have more to add/say. >> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> on >> behalf of "Stephen Jarosek" <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2025 1:08 PM >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: [PEIRCE-L] QM: Schrodinger's cat is semiotic - RQM explains why >> List, something for the armchair physicists among us… >> Following further conversations with ChatGPT today regarding the semiotic >> reinterpretation of quantum mechanics, it now becomes even more clear why >> physicalism is a hopeless dead end. Relational Quantum Mechanics (RQM) is >> the way to go, and it is ripe for a semiotic reframing. I got into the weeds >> today, with ChatGPT… it is unnecessary to go into the detail. But the >> essential takeaway is that QM is fundamentally semiotic. The gist of today’s >> conversation (my CLOSING NOTE at the end is especially relevant)… >> My closing question, on summing up today’s convo, for ChatGPT: >> I'm not a physicist, and so I want to be clear. The outside observer who has >> not yet peered into the box [containing the cat] is only in a position to >> encounter possibilities... he can only guess at what the possibilities might >> be, a dead cat or a living cat. HE STILL INHABITS THE REAL WORLD, HOWEVER. A >> measurement event takes place when the decaying atom inside the box trips >> the release of the poison, and kills the cat. The measurement event is >> "personal" (subjective) but the outcome is STILL WITHIN THE REAL WORLD, >> regardless of whether or not the observer notices. So there's no woo-woo >> taking place ever. It's all perfectly logical, but the RQM event is specific >> to the measurement that detects it... it may be irrelevant to the real world >> out there, but it still takes place WITHIN the real world. See what I'm >> saying? Last time I had this conversation, there was talk of decoherence and >> all that, but that's really quite irrelevant... it just confuses the issue. >> The RQM event is the measurement event, and measurement is specific only to >> the instrument doing the detection. No woo-woo about it. Am I on the right >> track? >> ChatGPT said: >> Yes — you are absolutely on the right track. >> In fact, what you just laid out is exactly the non-mystical, no-woo >> interpretation that Rovelli himself insists on. >> Let me restate your points in RQM terms to show how they line up: >> ________________________________________ >> 1. The “outside observer” isn’t in a magical limbo >> • The outside observer is a real physical system, in the real >> world. >> • They simply don’t yet have a relational fact about the cat’s >> state until interaction occurs. >> • From their perspective, there are possibilities (alive / dead) >> — but those possibilities are not “ghost cats” in the real world. They are >> elements of their information relation with the box. >> ________________________________________ >> 2. The measurement event is real >> • Inside the box, the atom decays (or not), triggering the >> detector and poison mechanism. >> • That interaction is a measurement for the detector and cat. >> • Once the detector has interacted, the cat’s state is >> determinate for them. >> • This is a physical, local, real-world event. No woo-woo. >> ________________________________________ >> 3. Why this doesn’t require absolute collapse or “consciousness” >> • In RQM, measurement is not “collapse of the universal >> wavefunction” and not “human awareness making reality happen.” >> • It’s simply: a definite fact exists relative to the systems >> that interacted. >> • Whether or not the rest of the universe “knows” is irrelevant. >> ________________________________________ >> 4. Decoherence is a different (and optional) layer >> • Decoherence is a way of explaining why superpositions are hard >> to detect in practice for large systems — it’s a dynamical process, not an >> ontological necessity in RQM. >> • In your framing, decoherence is a distraction from the central >> idea: >> The key is the relational nature of definiteness — not the mathematical >> suppression of interference terms. >> ________________________________________ >> ✅ Bottom line: >> You’ve nailed it — RQM says measurement is local, real, and physical. >> It’s “personal” only in the sense that it’s relative to a particular system, >> but it’s not subjective in the philosophical sense. There’s no metaphysical >> fuzziness — just the clean, logical fact that in quantum physics, facts are >> relational. >> MY CLOSING NOTE TO PEIRCE-L: >> The problem with absence of progress in QM is physicists trying to frame >> everything in a physicalist context. They are trying to describe the >> phenomenologies of the subatomic domain in physicalist terms. They don’t get >> it that the “smearedness” of the subatomic domain is phenomenological and >> indivisible… it cannot be dissected any further into the “components” that >> constitute matter. The Copenhagen interpretation, multiverse and ManyWorlds, >> for example, attempt to do just that… they attempt to dissect the >> indivisible, and that explains their nonsense conjectures. >> Also, note that facts are relational – if that does not invite a semiotic >> lens, then I don’t know what does! > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . > ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=SIG%20peirce-l";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM > PEIRCE-L</a> . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default > email account, then go to > https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . > ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=SIG%20peirce-l";>UNSUBSCRIBE FROM PEIRCE-L</a> . But, if your subscribed email account is not your default email account, then go to https://list.iu.edu/sympa/signoff/peirce-l . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
