Helmut,
What you project here is pretty much what I’ve done with Turning Signs. One part of the text, the obverse I call it, consists of 19 sequential chapters that were completed two years ago and have not changed (except that some links have been added.) Another part, the reverse, is still developing and each of the chapters (or rePatches) is dated at the top. Then the blog posts, which are more bite-sized, are automatically dated when I post them, and subscribers to the blog always get what’s new on the same day that it’s patched into the reverse side of TS. Peirce in his last few years of writing got into the habit of dating his manuscripts, which is very helpful if you’re trying to follow his thinking. The fact that he kept most of his drafts (and they’re mostly undated) is a mixed blessing for researchers. The fact that they were dismembered and rearranged by the CP editors is more unfortunate. Anyway, if you search Turning Signs for the term “systems” (http://gnusystems.ca/TS/TWindex.htm) you might find some material or references that you can use for your purposes. Completing the obverse of my book took 15 years and some of that went into the study of systems theory. Gary f. } Set thy heart upon thy work, but never upon its reward. [Bhagavad-Gita 2:47] { <http://gnusystems.ca/wp/> http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ }{ Turning Signs gateway From: Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de] Sent: 6-Aug-17 16:51 Thank you, Kirsti! I do not have time to write it as a scientifical correct book with all relevant literature mentioned (having an idea takes seconds, but comparing it with the most relevant existing texts about the subject has a different time scale) , and in the past it was always so, that things I had written turned out to being mistakes later, and I had to edit it all over again. I had done this with a website. But this way it is impossible for others to take the text, which changes all the time, serious. Eg. it is impossible to quote something from me. So, if I am going to write a kind of blog again, I should mark the part, that will not change anymore, as such, maybe draw a box around it, or use a special letter style ("font"?), and mark the other part, which may still be edited, too. And partition the text in chapters signed with dates. Or something like that. Coming soon in this theater (internet), I think. Best wishes too, Helmut 06. August 2017 um 13:34 Uhr kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> wrote: Helmut, Todays systems theories were not known by Peirce. Thus he dis not use the TERM (which is just a name for a theoretical concept) in the sense (meaning) it is used nowadays. I have studied some early cybernetics, then Bertallanffy and Luhman in more detail. But I left keeping up with this tract, except in a most superficial way. I think you may be after something truly important. Of course there are others with similar aims. Best wishes, Kirsti kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> kirjoitti 6.8.2017 10:41: > Helmut, > > That is good to know. Thanks. > > Kirsti > > Helmut Raulien kirjoitti 5.8.2017 22:09: >> Kirsti, >> you wrote: "I find it difficult to answer your questions, Helmut, >> because I do not >> have a clear enough idea of what you are aiming at. What is the >> ground >> for you interest in CSP? What do you aim to do with the knowledge and >> understanding you are after?" >> >> I want to combine CSP with systems theory. I think, there might come >> out a triadic systems theory this way. Peirce did not write much about >> systems, I think, and existing systems theories are not based on CSP. >> Stanley N. Salthe wrote about systems hierarchies: >> "Salthe´12Axiomathes". In this paper he wrote, that there are two >> kinds of systems hierarchies: Composition and subsumption. The latter >> is, or includes, classification. Therefore I am interested in the ways >> both (composition and classification) play a role in CSP´s theory of >> signs. >> >> Best, >> Helmut >> >> 05. August 2017 um 12:44 Uhr >> kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> >> wrote: >> >> Helmut Raulien kirjoitti 4.8.2017 21:06: >> > Kirsti, >> > you wrote: "Also, with triads, thinking in "parts" does not do. >> > According to my >> > view, that is. Nor do the idea of "containing"." >> > >> > Instead you wrote about: " Categorical aspects (or perspectives). " >> > >> > But, isn´t this a kind of containing or composition? Like if you >> add >> > all aspects or perspectives, you have the whole picture? >> >> Helmut, >> >> It depends on what is meant by containing or composition. And with "a >> whole picture". >> >> A whole picture of what? The final truth??? - Something like "better, >> or >> "good enough" would be a better way of putting the issue. >> >> What did CSP aim at? That is something to be interpreted on the >> ground >> of all his Nachlass. - To my mind he was aiming at a philosophy of >> science which truly works. In real life, that is. He was offering >> methods and tools for research. >> >> There already are billions of pictures of wheels, hammers etc. Making >> a >> composite picture of those does not help in skills of using them or >> making them. >> >> I find it difficult to answer your questions, Helmut, because I do >> not >> have a clear enough idea of what you are aiming at. What is the >> ground >> for you interest in CSP? What do you aim to do with the knowledge and >> understanding you are after? >> >> Best, >> >> Kirsti >> >> > >> > 04. August 2017 um 08:34 Uhr >> > kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> >> > >> > Helmut, >> > >> > You wrote: "...eg. what would be the difference between "qualisign" >> > and >> > "icon". First, they are ripped off from different trichotomies (of >> > which >> > one is left out, by the way). Second, these present something >> arrived >> > at >> > from differing Categorical aspetcs (or perspectives). Without >> working >> > out oneself what is involved in all this, it is bound to hard or >> even >> > impossible to grasp what you seem to be after. >> > >> > Also, with triads, thinking in "parts" does not do. According to my >> > view, that is. Nor do the idea of "containing". >> > >> > I have never found sign classifications of much use, even though I >> > spent >> > a lot of time once, long ago, with reading CSP's own writings on >> > those >> > issues. >> > >> > Existential graphs is the only part of his logic, that I have found >> > CSP >> > to write down that he had succeeded in developing. But still >> holding >> > the >> > firm view, that it presented only a part of Logic. Only one of the >> > three >> > logically necessary approaches. >> > >> > I have only worked out the introductory sections CSP has written on >> > this. This work has been immensely useful. In 1980' and early >> 1990's >> > I >> > tried to find companions to form a study circe, with no success. >> > >> > Best, Kirsti >> > >> > Helmut Raulien kirjoitti 3.8.2017 22:54: >> > > Kirsti, List, >> > > For me both (classification and triads) was and still is complex >> > and >> > > hard to understand. Before I have had a more or less proper >> > > understanding of the sign triad, I did not understand sign >> classes, >> > > eg. what would be the difference between "qualisign" and "icon". >> > > Another puzzling thing is, that a triad is a composition of >> > categorial >> > > parts, so an "AND"-matter. Classification means "either or" or >> > "NAND", >> > > but a legisign contains sinisigns and qualisigns. This is "AND", >> so >> > > where is the "NAND"? The answer is, I think, that a legisign is >> > > composed of sinisigns, which are composed of qualisigns. But >> > > composition is just a matter different from classification. >> > Therefore >> > > a sign relation is either a quali- or a sini-, or a legisign, no >> > > matter what a sini- or a legisign is composed of. >> > > So it was incorrect of me to have written, that classification >> and >> > > triads are two different topics. Instead it would be more correct >> > to >> > > say, that they are two different things, but to understand one of >> > > them, you must have had understood the other. Which, of course, >> is >> > not >> > > possible (a paradoxon), so it is necessary to read about both >> > topics >> > > (make them one topic) to understand both. >> > > So I agree with you having written: "Taking bits and pieces from >> > CSP >> > > just does not work. The "pieces" only >> > > work in the context of his work as a whole." >> > > Best, >> > > Helmut >> > > >> > > 03. August 2017 um 10:08 Uhr >> > > kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> >> > > wrote: >> > > Triads belog to the system of Categories, the hardest part in >> > Peircean >> > > philosphy to fully grasp. It is much easier to use only >> > > classifications. >> > > This appoach involves confining to Secondness, as if it were the >> > > only, >> > > or even the most important part in his philosphy. - Peirce >> > definitely >> > > left this road. >> > > >> > > By this I do not mean that classifications are useless. Quite >> often >> > > they >> > > are useful as a stepping stone in the beginning of any serious >> > > research >> > > relying on Peircean Categories. >> > > >> > > It is true that in his later life CSP started call his work >> > > Pragmaticism, in opposition Pragmatism. But I do not agree in >> that >> > > the >> > > reason was anything like the latter being "too relativistic". The >> > > issue >> > > was much more complicated. Best to study CSP's later writings on >> > the >> > > issues involved. >> > > >> > > To my mind Apel ended up with many misunderstandings and >> > > misinterpretations in his work on CSP. E.g. he relied too much on >> > > traditional Continental views of the hermeutic circle. >> > > >> > > Taking bits and pieces from CSP just does not work. The "pieces" >> > only >> > > work in the context of his work as a whole. >> > > >> > > Best, Kirsti >> > > >> > > Helmut Raulien kirjoitti 3.8.2017 01:12: >> > > > List, >> > > > Are trichotomies and triads two different topics? I think so: >> One >> > > is >> > > > classification, the other composition. "Signs" as a term, I >> > think, >> > > is >> > > > more connected with classification, and "meaning" with >> > composition. >> > > Is >> > > > that so? It is my impression. >> > > > And: Is it so, that Peirce called himself a "Pragmaticist", in >> > > > opposition to "Pragmatism", which was too relativistic for him? >> > So >> > > > Peirce has a connection ability towards metahysics and >> > > transcendental >> > > > philosophy, and maybe that is what Apel liked him for? Only my >> > > > impression too, maybe wrong, I have not read so much. >> > > > Best, >> > > > Helmut >> > > > >> > > > 01. August 2017 um 15:45 Uhr >> > > > kirst...@saunalahti.fi <mailto:kirst...@saunalahti.fi> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > Clark understood pretty correctly what I meant with my post: A >> > > > question >> > > > of shifting emphasis by CSP. Which to my mind is shown in a >> shift >> > > of >> > > > interest from trichotomies (and systems of sign classification) >> > > into >> > > > triads and triadic thinking (as a method). >> > > > >> > > > On these issues I have written extensively to the list in early >> > > > 2000's. >> > > > As Gary R. well knows as a participant in those discussions. So >> I >> > > > refer >> > > > to the list archives. >> > > > >> > > > It was after I had reached this view of mine, that I read >> > Karl-Otto >> > > > Apel's book: "Charles S. Peirce: From Pragmatism to >> Pragmaticism" >> > > > published in 1981. He arrived at similar conclusions. >> > > > >> > > > What, to my mind, makes Apel's treatise especially interesting, >> > is >> > > > that >> > > > his starting points were different from those most often >> refered >> > > and >> > > > discussed here in the list. >> > > > >> > > > Apel wrote his doctoral thesis on Heidegger (1950). Was >> > thoroughly >> > > > familiar with the hermeneutic tradition (e.g. Dilthey). Later >> > > > developed >> > > > his transcendental pragmatism. These I have not read. >> > > > >> > > > In my early years (as a post-graduate) I read a lot on >> > > hermeneutics. >> > > > Hegel also. Helsinki department of philosophy was offering >> almost >> > > > only >> > > > analytical philosophy. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > >> > > > Kirsti >> > > > >> > > > CLARK GOBLE kirjoitti 1.8.2017 07:52: >> > > > >> On Jul 31, 2017, at 6:52 PM, Gary Richmond >> > > > <gary.richm...@gmail.com <mailto:gary.richm...@gmail.com> > >> > > > >> wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >> But you will recall that his classification of signs and >> > > expansion >> > > > >> of this classification recently discussed here was an >> > important >> > > > part >> > > > >> of his letters to Victoria Welby. And in his late work, even >> > his >> > > > >> discussion of and expansion of the notion of the >> Interpretant >> > > > >> (meaning, as discussed in my last post) has important >> > structural >> > > > >> features, not to be glossed over in my opinion. >> > > > > >> > > > > Well I think we're saying the same thing the question is more >> > the >> > > > > more minor issue of what was the driver: meaning or just >> > > curiosity >> > > > of >> > > > > structure in general. That's a more subtle point I don't have >> > > > > strong positions on although I'm sympathetic to what I took >> > > Kirsti >> > > > > to be claiming: mainly that it was meaning that was the prime >> > > > driver. >> > > > > But I think we all agree with what the outcome of that >> inquiry >> > > was. >> > > > > >> > > > > I'd love to hear Kirsti defend her claim about meaning being >> > the >> > > > > driver. >> > > > > >> > > > > My own beliefs here (which I'm more than happy to change with >> > > > > further information) come largely from the same paper you >> > quoted >> > > > > earlier "Pragmatism" from 1907 (MS318) In particular the >> > > different >> > > > > variants of the paper he worked with seem to me to show a >> > strong >> > > > focus >> > > > > on meaning. >> > > > > >> > > > >> Suffice it to say once more than pragmatism is, in itself, >> no >> > > > >> doctrine of metaphysics, no attempt to determine any truth >> of >> > > > >> things. It is merely a method of ascertaining the meaning of >> > > hard >> > > > >> words and abstract concepts. All pragmatists of whatsoever >> > > stripe >> > > > >> will cordially ascent to that statement. As to the ulterior >> > and >> > > > >> idirect effects of practicing the pragmatistic method, that >> is >> > > > quite >> > > > >> another affair. >> > > > > (Sorry just have my Kindle handy so no accurate page numbers) >> > > > > >> > > > > He then continues going into nuance on meaning to shift to a >> > > > > discussion to signs. He bridges the discussion after talking >> > > about >> > > > > _total meaning _in terms of counterfactual (would-be) acts by >> > > > asking >> > > > > how his principles of predication are to be proved. He turns >> > for >> > > > that >> > > > > to a discussion of signs, but the discussion of signs is >> > > ultimately >> > > > > conducted in service to his larger discussion of meaning and >> > > > > pragmatism. As he continues to discuss signs though, he >> always >> > > > keeps >> > > > > that topic of meaning in sight. It's true that by the middle >> of >> > > the >> > > > > paper he's shifted from talking about meaning to talking >> about >> > > > > signification. But that's merely because it's a more precise >> > way >> > > > > of continuing the same discussion. (IMO) I think he continues >> > > > > discussing meaning, noting such things that object of the >> sign >> > > > can't >> > > > > be the proper object. He then relates feelings as tied to the >> > > > meaning >> > > > > of the sing. He finally discusses meaning once again in terms >> > of >> > > > > "would be" as a way of ultimately grounding meaning. >> > > > > >> > > > > He finally closes by going through the various types of >> > > pragmatism >> > > > > contrasting them with his own over where they vary in terms >> of >> > > > meaning >> > > > > using his discussion of the sign. To me that implies that the >> > > whole >> > > > > point of signs in that discussion was to elucidate the >> > > differences >> > > > > between his own meaning of pragmatism with James, Schiller >> and >> > > > others. >> > > > > >> > > > > Again, I'm fully willing to be wrong here. Most of you are >> far >> > > > > better versed in the nuances of Peirce's development than I. >> > But >> > > it >> > > > > really seemed to me to be that distancing himself from others >> > > over >> > > > > meaning that led to his getting into deeper nuance in the >> > > structure >> > > > of >> > > > > the object and interpretant than he had in previous decades. >> > > > > >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > >>> SR: Is this forum an effort to establish scholarly >> precision >> > > > about >> > > > >>> what Peirce said or meant or understood? Or is is an >> attempt >> > to >> > > > >>> use his ideas as we understand them as relevant signposts >> to >> > > now? >> > > > >>> Maybe it is both. . . >> > > > >> >> > > > >> This has come up a number of times on this list, a few times >> > by >> > > > >> Stephen. I would say that certain members of this forum at >> > times >> > > > >> emphasize the importance of clarifying what Peirce's >> thought, >> > > > while >> > > > >> others at times emphasize using his ideas to further >> > > contemporary >> > > > >> thought. But this appears to be mainly a matter of >> _emphasis_, >> > > and >> > > > >> it seems to me that some of the strongest contributors to >> this >> > > > forum >> > > > >> see it as a both (that is certainly my position). >> > > > > >> > > > > If the list is only for understanding the history or exegesis >> > of >> > > > > Peirce's own writings then it's far too limited to be of that >> > > much >> > > > > interest I must confess. It's in application that Peirce's >> > > thought >> > > > > has most value. Whether that be in philosophy (my own >> interest) >> > > or >> > > > > chemistry or related fields as others have focused on. But if >> > > it's >> > > > > merely dry history of philosophy with no interest in >> relevancy >> > > then >> > > > > the list will surely die quickly. >> > > > > >> > > > >> I do not at all think that "it is safe to say" that Peirce's >> > > work >> > > > on >> > > > >> meaning has been more influential than his work in >> semiotics, >> > > > >> especially in recent decades. While it is true that James >> and >> > > > Dewey >> > > > >> didn't fully (really, not all that mujch) embrace Peirce's >> > work >> > > on >> > > > >> signs. But this field of modern semeiotics which Peirce had >> > > pretty >> > > > >> much invented (although drawing from Classical, Medieval, >> and >> > > > other >> > > > >> sources) was, naturally, both entirely new to them and quite >> > > > >> difficult to fully grasp (as it is even in our day, although >> I >> > > see >> > > > >> some considerable progress in this regard). As I see it, >> > neither >> > > > >> James nor Dewey had studied enough of the developments in >> the >> > > > logic >> > > > >> of Peirce's time to fully (much) understand his semiotic >> (this >> > > was >> > > > >> especially so for James, while Peirce did not think very >> much >> > of >> > > > >> Dewey's work in logic). >> > > > > >> > > > > Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant within philosophy >> > > > proper. >> > > > > In terms of semiotics you are of course correct. Within >> > > philosophy >> > > > > though the import of Peirce's logic and semiotics have not >> yet >> > > been >> > > > > appreciated I fear. My personal opinion is that had people >> like >> > > > Dewey >> > > > > (or later Rorty and Putnam) applied the logic more a lot of >> > > > > philosophical dead ends would have been avoided. (Indeed I >> > think >> > > > most >> > > > > of Quine's major works largely end up positions Peirce >> already >> > > held >> > > > > due to his logic) >> > > > > >> > > > >> Again, while I agree with the important of, not only the >> > > pragmatic >> > > > >> maxim, but all of his work in pragmaticism, your notion that >> > > "the >> > > > >> place of meaningfulness . . . in some ways exceeds his work >> on >> > > > >> signs" is your opinion, while many would disagree. I haven't >> > > time >> > > > to >> > > > >> discuss this at the moment except to say that I am of that >> > camp >> > > > >> which would _strongly_ disagree. >> > > > > >> > > > > Well again I'm limiting myself to philosophy and again noting >> > > that >> > > > > in saying how importance meaning is that doesn't mean his >> logic >> > > is >> > > > > unimportant. Just not as important. >> > > > > >> > > > > I still have to address your earlier points which are well >> made >> > > and >> > > > > need engaged with. Hopefully later this week. I hope that I >> > > > clarified >> > > > > that I'm speaking more of philosophy rather than applied >> > > semiotics. >> > > > > >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > ----------------------------- >> > > > PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to >> > REPLY >> > > > ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to >> > > > peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . To >> > > > UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to >> > > > PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with >> > > > the line "UNSubscribe >> > > > PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at >> > > > http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm [1] [1] [1] [1] . >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Links: >> > > > ------ >> > > > [1] http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm [1] [1] [1] >> > > >> > > >> > > Links: >> > > ------ >> > > [1] http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm [1] [1] >> > >> > >> > Links: >> > ------ >> > [1] http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm [1] >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
